Riddle Game #2

[EinBein]

This is difficult to answer to, if you do not fix an exchange rate between gold and silver in your gameworld.

According to the German Wikipedia article about "Gulden" the exchange rate between gold and silver in the 13th century was roughly 1:10 to 1:12 in Europe compared to 1:6 to 1:8 in the Maghreb.

By the way, it's really interesting what you stumble upon when you search for facts about coinage. I found it interesting how they tested the silver for its purity by weighing it, melting it with a bit of lead and copper, and when the lead and copper had settled they weighed the remaining silver again. By seeing the difference, they could tell that the silver was of poor quality in the first place.

Or by scratching the silver coin over a rough black stone surface and by comparing the colour of the silver line on the stone with a set of differently pure silver sticks.

Really pragmatic, but not too accurate.

And concering your question without calculating too much: I totally agree with Marras in every respect if we settle an exchange rate of 1:10...

[higgins]

Concerning to the German Wikipedia article about "Gulden" the exchange rate between gold and silver in the 13th century was roughly 1:10 to 1:12 in Europe compared to 1:6 to 1:8 in the Maghreb.

Congratulations! You have reached the silver coin accounting units. Proceed one step further to reach the actual coins

[EinBein]

The name of it? My two guesses:

Pfennig (Denarius albus). Each "Kölner Pfennig" was 1.461 g and made of silver.
Groschen (Denarius grossus / grossus Boemicalus / "thick Pfennig"). 3.7 g heavy and made of silver as well.[/list]

[higgins]

No, I meant that the Florin (as the "gold standard" of the 13th century) was modelled after one lira (Florentian pound, an accounting unit) of silver, which was composed of 20 soldi (also an accounting unit) or 240 denari (actual silver coins). The nomenclature is doubly confusing since these names derive from completely different Roman coins, but... yeah, I was just saying that your exchange rate was a whole magnitude off according to my research.

I've seen the ~12:1 elsewhere on the web though, and never found an actual source for that claim.

[Arrow Odd]

So,are we getting LSD ?

[higgins]

So,are we getting LSD ?

Alas, Britain beat us to it and already claimed all that £sd to themselves.

And yes, this is where those markings come from. Okay, sure, some people claim that these originate from the roman librae, solidi and denarii, but solidus was a gold coin while Florentian soldo was a silver one, so, the British system bears much more resemblance to the Florentian coinage as compared to the Roman ones. Clearly, Florentian terms are derived from Roman ones... but yeah. You get the point.

[Agamemnon]

So,are we getting LSD ?

no-i-havent-seen-your-lsd.jpg

[Arrow Odd]

Clearly, Florentian terms are derived from Roman ones... but yeah. You get the point.

I was more interested in the idea of 12 small ones make a big one, 20 big ones make a huge one than the names and etymologies. Of course your ratios might vary. I like this more than the general 100cp == 10sp == 1gp.

Anyhow, I trust the 'outer / advanced / utter bastard' rules will cover hacksilver, coin clipping, forgery and the role of the money changer

[Agamemnon]

Clearly, Florentian terms are derived from Roman ones... but yeah. You get the point.

I was more interested in the idea of 12 small ones make a big one, 20 big ones make a huge one than the names and etymologies. Of course your ratios might vary. I like this more than the general 100cp == 10sp == 1gp.

Anyhow, I trust the 'outer / advanced / utter bastard' rules will cover hacksilver, coin clipping, forgery and the role of the money changer

I LOVE coin clipping! .. Wait. That didn't come out right...

[higgins]

I was more interested in the idea of 12 small ones make a big one, 20 big ones make a huge one than the names and etymologies. Of course your ratios might vary. I like this more than the general 100cp == 10sp == 1gp.

The traditional £sd has 1:20:240 ratio. Florentine pound was ~340 grams, which makes around 1.4 gram silver coins. This was debased silver though. Debased enough to be mentioned wherever the Florin minting is explained.

Medieval Lübeck, from which 'Bastards derives its silver nomenclature, had 1:16:192. Lübeck used the Lübeck mark (a.k.a. Cologne pound), which was ~234 grams, which makes around 1.2 gram silver coins. Lübeck also minted their copies of the Florin, which seems to have been worth one of their silver marks.

Those ratios would make calculations a HUGE mess though, so, we decided to both approximate, as well as mix and match things. Our default "pound" or mark is half the modern pound, or ~227 grams (just 7 grams less than the historical Lübeck mark), and we go for 1:20:400 ratio. Sure, that makes pennies 0.567 grams, so, just half of their historical weight, but after some clipping and wear, this isn't too far off when compared to some of the surviving examples.

As historically appropriate for the era, we don't have copper or brass coins.

So, that means that the equivalent of 4000 Gulden in 'Bastards weighs exactly one short ton in silver, which makes 150 l or 40 gallons of silver coins. Think five 8 gallon beer kegs for a nice visual. Or half of the 80 gallon drum.

For the Florentine debased silver, it would be 50% more. In Lübeck with with newly minted coins, it would be 3% more. However, insert a few dozen coin clippers into that city and... I'm quite happy with that kind of error if it means we don't need to divide things with 12 or 16 during gameplay.

Anyhow, I trust the 'outer / advanced / utter bastard' rules will cover hacksilver, coin clipping, forgery and the role of the money changer

The wealth chapter makes a passing mention of the practice, but there are no actual rules attached.

[Agamemnon]

Anyhow, I trust the 'outer / advanced / utter bastard' rules will cover hacksilver, coin clipping, forgery and the role of the money changer

The wealth chapter makes a passing mention of the practice, but there are no actual rules attached.

Sounds like a kickstarter stretch goal to me.