Riddle Game #2

[higgins]

Since I've been editing the Wealth chapter lately, here's a fun little task for you:

I want you to imagine 4000 gold coins.

Let's assume the coins being the most common variety in medieval times. Then try to estimate the volume of that treasure. As in, how much room would those coins take. Then hazard a guess about their weight. Then post your guesses below. Narrative comparisons are okay, but you can also suggest distinct units, if you are so inclined.

And don't cheat now Make an honest guess. I will reveal the correct answer soon.

And yes, finding that out will be as simple as cracking open the right section of the book

[Marras]

My guess is that they fit to a chest, locked of course. Gold is pretty heavy but I would say that coins would be pretty small. So maybe it's around 100 kg...

[higgins]

Chests can be of very different size. How large a chest do you imagine?

[Marras]

Apparently I failed when trying to be clever

As a total guess, maybe something that has a volume of about 10 liters.

[Agamemnon]

Apparently I failed when trying to be clever

it was a nice try though!

[Arrow Odd]

And don't cheat now 

Hmm. I can't recall seeing any medieval coins. I remember seeing Roman and Dark Age silver coins. Small and quite thin compared to modern coins.

I'll guess that medieval gold coins would still be thin but with a larger diameter. I'd guess you'd 2 - 4 for the same volume as a UK 2p piece.

So, ummm. That's around the volume of 20-40 correctly filled bank bags (4000/(4*50)) - 4000/(2*50)) . Looking at the three in front of me - I'd say that it should fit into a shoe box?

Gold's about twice as dense as steel and I recall a 2p piece weighing around 7 grams. So maybe 3.5g - 7g for a gold coin. 15kg to 30kg for the lot?

[higgins]

Hmm. I can't recall seeing any medieval coins.

Well, the exercise was originally meant to gauge people's perception of coinage, so, I wasn't expecting people to actually know any historical sizes or dimensions.

I'm not commenting on your (or anyone else's) estimates yet, as I want to give others a chance to chime in with their guesses as well.

[EinBein]

If I take the Bohemian "Gulden" from 1325 as reference, which was 0.12 oz / 3.537 g of pure gold per coin, I have a total weight of approx. 500 oz / 14.15 kg for 4000 gold coins and with a density of 19.32 g/cm³ of gold a volume of 732 cm³.

The whole bunch would therefor fit in a very small chest of 10*10*10 cm inner volume (1000 cm³) with a bit of extra volume as the coins will have gaps in between...

But this chest would be pretty heavy itself, made up of oak with a thickness of 1 cm all around (density up to 0.9 g/cm³) and two iron bandages (density 7.85 g/cm³) it would roughly weigh 50 oz / 1.405 kg.

No fun for an adventurer without a horse or cart

Edit: Yes, I know you wanted us to guess, but as an engineer I simply had to find out the real values...

[Marras]

EinBein, I know how you feel and it wasn't easy for me to resist the urge to do the same

[higgins]

Okay, yeah. EinBein didn't leave much room for anyone else to guess. What can I say? His reasoning is solid. Except...

Except for the volume.

The "bit of extra volume" between the coins due the gaps adds a whopping 75% to the overall volume when talking about larger amount of coin. So, that one liter chest would have been too small to fit 4000 coins. 3000 would fit in it with a very small amount of space left over, but not 4000.

Surprisingly, he did get another thing right that he probably didn't even think of -- the standard gold coin in 'Bastards is indeed called a Gulden

The Gulden in 'Bastards weighs 4 grams, having the average weight of a Roman solidus, weighing 4.5 grams, and a Florentine florin, weighing 3.5 grams. Florins weren't nearly as widespread as solidi, but over a hundred other states and cities took upon themselves to copy their form and weight when minting gold currency of their own, making it the closest thing there was to a standard gold coin after the fall of Rome. From the looks of it, the Bohemian Gulden was probably a Florin derivative as well.

So, the answer I was looking for was the one that 'Bastards wealth chapter would have given you -- 4000 gold coins would roughly take up 1.5 liters/quarts in volume, and weigh 16 kg or around 35 lb

[EinBein]

Nice Thanks for the credit (was it a positive conclusion?)...

[higgins]

Positive? Sorry. That's a bit obscure for me.

[Marras]

Damn! My guess went pretty wild

Depending on the container needed even that amount of money is pretty portable, if you have it as gold coins.

[higgins]

Depending on the container needed even that amount of money is pretty portable, if you have it as gold coins.

Yup. That's one of the main conclusions I've drawn from my research -- the main value of gold is the portability of wealth. And also that... "No, seriously, gold is worth more than you think."

So, with that in mind, anybody want to guess what kind mass and volume of silver it would take to gather up the wealth equivalent to 4000 gold coins?

[Marras]

I know this will bite me in the a** but I will go with conservative guess this time.

I will use the often used 1 gp = 10 sp rate, so in silver it would weight around 160 kg but volume might be 30 liters.