Swordplay and the Wordsmith

[Arrow Odd]

While we wait for Thursday...

To help get us into a Bastardy mood. Might I ask you which author's descriptions of combat you think best get that grit and historical plausibility that I think BoB is aiming for?

From my limited reading, my suggestions are:

Alexander Dumas. Fights in The Three Musketeers are short and sharp and always a last resort. Maybe too historical a setting for S&S style playing but the tales of the four heroes is perfect example of Band of Good-Hearted Bastards.

Fritz Lieber. Now we're into full on S&S with a pair of Adventuring Bastards. Amidst the magic, great treasures and mysterious places there are some very precise and convincing blow by blow fight sequences.

If this thread gets rolling, I'll dig out some quotes.

A little googling suggests that both Dumas and Lieber fenced.

[I wasn't sure where to place this. I'm sure a mod can move it if it seems relevant elsewhere.]

[higgins]

I have to admit that I got a huge kick out of Joe Abercrombie's The First Law trilogy. What it lacked in the firearms department, it certainly made up for bastards-wise.

Also, I'm a big fan of Bernard Cornwell. Sharpe is set in somewhat later period than 'Bastards, but it's an outstanding series, especially if you want inspiration for running a military campaign. I can't think of a better example of musket warfare in literature, it having both skirmishes and large scale battles up to and including Waterloo.

And of course we can't fail but to mention GRRM in this list, especially as far as our magic system is concerned. More than once, we kept referring back to Melisandre as we designed the game.

[Marras]

I believe there is also TV series based on Sharpe novels starring Sean Bean.

There are also Captain Alatriste novels by Arturo Pérez-Reverte. A bit like Spanish musketeer but even more PC like character. There is also a film based on the books.

Hawkwood series by James McGee is about Bow Street runner. I suppose this is also set at a bit later period than 'Bastards.

[Agamemnon]

I'm personally a huge Robert E Howard fan across the board. I loved the Conan series, but for some reason I got a kick out of Solomon Kane in particular. The Kane movie wasn't awful either. I love James Purefoy.

Lovecraft had an inspiration on the magic system, but it's also heavily folklore based with touches of A Song of Ice and Fire thrown in. A book I can't recommend enough is actually The Necronomicon, by Donald Tyson. It's a fictional account of what was supposed to be in the book itself, and turned out to be a really interesting read by itself. I've got it sitting on my coffee table now.

The First Law series, as Higgins said, was a big part of where our vibe came from - particularly "The north," but realistically the stories that take place in the north is just a western..with swords. So it would be hard to do justice to what we've been setting up without throwing in whatever Clint Eastwood references you pleased, or for that matter, Kurosawa references. The Magificient Seven and Man With No Name series are just Seven Samurai and Yojimbo reflavored with guns instead of katana which speaks wonders to how universal those stories are.

Alexander Dumas is a huge reference point for me at least - both The Three Musketeers (the very best example of how to play as 'Bastards without being morally corrupt), and The Count of Monte Cristo is the example of the passion driven plot. The 2002 movie version was actually really good as well.

I never got around to reading Lieber, though I keep meaning to. Bernard Cornwell is a common reference point Higgins and I come back to when discussing things, and we make no secret that GRRM is a huge reference point for us and influenced a lot of the ways we wanted things to run. It wasn't uncommon for us to pull one of the A Song of Ice and Fire characters out and ask "What's his Story Aspect?" "How would we build him?" etc etc as a way of testing out our mechanics.

Hope that helps!

[higgins]

I believe there is also TV series based on Sharpe novels starring Sean Bean.

Correct. I love Sean Bean, but given the choice between watching the whole series from beginning to end and picking up a single random Sharpe novel, I'd do the latter any day.

There are also Captain Alatriste novels by Arturo Pérez-Reverte. A bit like Spanish musketeer but even more PC like character. There is also a film based on the books.

I've read one of those books, which was very Dumas-like with lofty, archaic descriptions. Not a surprise, really, as Pérez-Reverte is clearly a huge Dumas-buff -- he indeed wrote the much more modern and brisker The Club Dumas, from with The Ninth Gate movie was based on. Overall, I liked Alatriste movie as well, but the plot was clearly rushed.

[Marras]

I suppose I have to give Sharpe novels a chance, then

I have read 3-4 Alatriste novels, all that are so far translated to Finnish. I have understood that there are more novels written in Spanish but those are unfortunately not translated (to Finnish at least). Yes, the film was pretty good and I have to say that I was a bit surprised to see Viggo Mortensen rather than a native Spanish speaking actor as Alatriste.

Solomon Kane is a funny thing. Over 20 years ago I saw some Solomon Kane comics (Marvel, I think) but I didn't care for them. Much later I read the original short stories and I really liked those.

Another book that might fit the bill is Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson.

[hector]

The Sharpe novels are very good for that sort of era. I've only read two of them, unfortunately, but they do capture the opinions of the time very well.

[higgins]

I suppose I have to give Sharpe novels a chance, then

If you're determined to read all 21 books, start with Tiger, which is set in India. Tiger is also a good starting point if you're interested in the viewpoint of a common soldier, as Sharpe will become an officer later on. If you want to see what the series will be all about, start with Eagle, which is set in Spain. Don't start with Trafalgar or Devil, as those aren't typical Sharpe novels.

[Marras]

Thanks for the tips, Higgins!

I have seen (I think) first season of Sharpe TV series and it was set somewhere in Europe. It has been few years since I saw it so I don't remember if it was in Spain or in some other country.

[higgins]

I don't think it was ever divided into seasons and all the episodes are pretty much feature length. And yes, the series was mostly set in Spain. Cornwell wrote the Indian prequels when the TV series took off. In fact, he discontinued the U.S. Civil War based Copperhead series, as Sharpe was just so much more popular.

[Arrow Odd]

I only know GRRM from the TV series. It's good stuff but unfortunately I'm not good at reading stuff that I've "seen". Rather unfairly I'd assumed that it was another post D&D/Tolkien high fantasy epic.

I have read little contemporary fantasy since the Thomas Covenant books but I must give Joe Abercrombie a crack.

I remember Sharpe appearing in clumps of three or four episodes on British telly. I was leant a copy of Sharpe's Triumph a good while ago. Now I'm tempted to actually read it.

-
Shame that D&D got caught up in the Tolkien & Medieval vibe. I'm sure that GG really wanted a Howard/Lieber game.

[Agamemnon]

When you read early D&D - white box, BECMI, B/x - it's very clear that a conan style sword and sorcery experience was what was planned. I mean, really. Your heroes are all wandering adventurers that slay monsters in pursuit of gold and glory. You would actually get more experience points for the loot you brought back than the actual monsters you defeated, which encouraged you to use creative problem solving to get around monsters, rather than kill them. You might not be able to beat the dragon, but if you can figure out a way to occupy him long enough to steal his gold? Absolutely worth it.

There was also the very Conan-esq idea that your characters started as nameless nobodies, but by the time they Name level (9 or 10, in most editions), they started attracting followers, were expected to build a castle or stronghold, and become rulers in their own right.

The trouble was, of course, that "fantasy" for most people also meant hobbits, dwarves, and elves, which is why early editions treat those as their own archetypes.

I think over time, the focus in play shifted as people wanted to make D&D do more than it was originally meant to. Rather than have it be a very specific and focused game, people wanted to make it do everything for every purpose. In AD&D, you see more of a focus on urban campaigns and a shift away from S&S roots towards more traditional fantasy. By the time WotC got a hold of it, the original emphasis has been lost entirely, and it becomes a truly generic fantasy game.

Quite a shame, really.

[Daeruin]

You might want to check out The Mongoliad. It's a series that was written by a group of HEMAists including Neal Stephenson. The fight scenes were great. I've only read the first book, partly because I was miffed at the ending. It just cuts off right in the middle of the story--no climax, no nothing. But the story was promising and I will probably revisit it one day.

[Agamemnon]

You might want to check out The Mongoliad. It's a series that was written by a group of HEMAists including Neal Stephenson. The fight scenes were great. I've only read the first book, partly because I was miffed at the ending. It just cuts off right in the middle of the story--no climax, no nothing. But the story was promising and I will probably revisit it one day.

I actually had that recommended to me the other day. I guess I will have to look it up now.

[Marras]

Red Knight by Miles Cameron.

I have already mentioned this book in another thread but I want to add this to this list because combat descriptions are really quite nice. Granted, it is more like Middle Ages without firearms but I think it would still apply.