Third party attacking into an existing grapple

[Benedict]

Slightly out of the current discussion, but related to 1 v many. If not appropriate here, please move it to the correct thread.

Ruthard is fighting Twinscars. On 2nd tempo Twinscars successfully Grabs Weapon @ MoS2.

There's also another melee happening next to them, Hans vs Maciej, both armed.

Karl will be joining the melee with a spear at hand in the upcoming Phrase.

If he chooses to help out Ruthard who is already engaged in a grapple how this should be resolved?

[Marras]

Now that I have one combat under my belt I can give a little bit of input.

I really had a blast playing that combat scene over Roll20 with Korbel. It was not too clear to me how it should have gone but fortunately Korbel knew what he did and helped me a lot. As a 1 vs. 1 combat it went as well as expected and was by far more terrifying experience than usually, so well done!

But as I feared a system as highly specialized as the combat system in 'Bastards is prone to difficulties in special cases like 1 vs. many. I am not saying it can't be done but it would really help if there were some concrete guides and/or rules for these special cases.

Benedict - My opinion is that Twinscars is pretty easy prey for Karl in a situation like that. He is grappled and can't move freely. Actually Twinscars' best defense is to use Ruthard as a human shield. Perhaps this can be handled with 3-way opposed positioning roll? First Twinscars has to oppose Ruthard so he can move in a way to keep Ruthard between himself and Karl. Ruthard's roll tells how hard he makes that attempt by reducing the amount of successes rolled by Twinscars by successes he made. Then compare the remaining successes against successes generated by Karl. If Karl wins he can go as he wishes. If Twinscars wins then MoS is his defense and should Karl fail his roll he may end up hitting Ruthard as he is in effect a shield.

But yeah, there are still quite a bit of learning to do for me about the combat system so I might be missing something, not to mention making things too complicated

[Korbel]

Yup, I've been thinking about Positioning rolls, too. But now I'm leaning towards this: Karl simply joins the grapple and works together with Ruthard against Twinscar. I believe this is simple, fair and makes sense?

[EinBein]

I would just use the standard rules for fighting multiple opponents. So let everyone assign dice and test positioning (maybe disadvantaging the two grappling fighters):

• If Twinscars wins or in case of a tie, he can chose either opponent but needs to let go of Ruthard if he choses to go for Karl (kick him away and thus block him from the combat for this phrase).
• If the Ruthard and/or Karl win, the two can go for Twinscars according to standard rules. Twinscars has to separate his pool for the defenses and is of course limited in his choices of manouvres against Karl.

I wouldn't introduce any further elements to complicate the situation. Its hard enough for Twinscars to fight to able opponents.

[Korbel]

If the Ruthard and/or Karl win, the two can go for Twinscars according to standard rules. Twinscars has to separate his pool for the defenses and is of course limited in his choices of manouvres against Karl.

OK, but can Twinscars use regular defensive maneuvers against Karl while being in grapple (parry his blows, etc)? If not, how is he supposed to defend? With the Resist grappling maneuver (representing using Ruthard as a "shield")?

[higgins]

I would just use the standard rules for fighting multiple opponents. So let everyone assign dice and test positioning (maybe disadvantaging the two grappling fighters):

• If Twinscars wins or in case of a tie, he can chose either opponent but needs to let go of Ruthard if he choses to go for Karl (kick him away and thus block him from the combat for this phrase).
• If the Ruthard and/or Karl win, the two can go for Twinscars according to standard rules. Twinscars has to separate his pool for the defenses and is of course limited in his choices of manouvres against Karl.

That's exactly what I would have said. It's an issue of multiple opponents and positioning, so, use the rules for multiple opponents and positioning. A positioning roll disadvantage to the ones in grapple (or an advantage to the third party) is perfectly reasonable, too.

OK, but can Twinscars use regular defensive maneuvers against Karl while being in grapple (parry his blows, etc)? If not, how is he supposed to defend? With the Resist grappling maneuver (representing using Ruthard as a "shield")?

That's a good point! There's no maneuver to defend oneself from an outside strike. I find that quite realistic. Sure, in real life there's a chance to miss, strike the other person, etc, but we can't model every possible permutation of every possible fight configuration and need to draw a line at some point. So, in 'Bastards, if you're fighting two opponents, don't get into a grapple. Maybe unless you're REALLY confident in your ability to outposition them both at all times.

[nemedeus]

Maybe unless you're REALLY confident in your ability to outposition them both at all times.

That's why i think positioning rolls should base off Speed like preempting. To me it seems like preempting and positioning translate into almost the same thing in real fight anyway.