Stealth

[hector]

It seems to me that in this game's assumed setting, stealth is likely to play just as big a role as combat in a player's adventures. As a result, I thought I'd share a few thoughts I've had on the subject of running stealth in games, since it so often seems to just be an afterthought - either a way of getting from fight A to fight B or else a way to get into a better position for starting a fight. It never seems to be an option in its own right.

First of all, infiltration should not be based off of a single die roll - nor should it be a series of die rolls where a single failure renders everything you've achieved up to that point moot. It'd be like if you needed to hit an enemy five times but he only needed to hit you once in combat. Instead, stealth should be a series of small challenges, with opportunities to correct a situation if a roll fails.

Compare the following, for instance - "No successes - you failed. You take a step and the floorboard creaks underfoot. The guard turns and sees you - what do you do?" as compared with "No successes - you failed. You take a step and the floorboard creaks underfoot. The guard is turning around, what do you do?"

I would argue that the latter of the two is the better way to run things, because the player might then have the option of quickly diving behind something to not be seen, or trying to take out the guard before he can cry out. Either way, it's the player's choice of how to deal with a complication, rather than a single roll determining whether the entire thing works or fails.

In the example above, the player might decide to take a different route, or find a way to ambush the guard, or maybe if he remains hidden for long enough the guard will decide that the creak was just his imagination. If the player knocks out or kills the guard, he's going to want to find a way of hiding the deed, but he might pick up a key from the body that saves him having to pick certain locks. That being said, the guard might cry out, raising the alarm sooner.

If you've ever played Thief - The Dark Project, I would liken a failed stealth roll to stepping too loudly on a tiled floor, or misjudging the light level such that a guard investigates. It creates tension and adds to the game, rather than saying "Well, I screwed up my stealth roll - time to murder everybody!"

While handling things this way takes more time than more traditional methods of handling stealth in games, I reckon it's worth it in a game where stealth might actually be a large part of the game, rather than simply something to do between fights.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Agamemnon]

You bring up some interesting points that we've actually taken into account as a general notion. 'Bastards has some fundamental assumptions on how and when dice are rolled to begin with, and what those rolls mean.

First, a roll is never called for unless it advances the story in some fashion. If it's unimportant, the GM is advised to just go along with it.

Second, the results of the roll stand, for good or ill. If you fail to pick the lock, it is simply beyond your skill at this time. You can't make another attempt to pick the lock until something significantly changes about your circumstances: you increase your skill, get better tools, new information, something. This protects the GM from the player "fishing for 20s" as it has been called in other systems, and it protects the player from the GM demanding that they make 10 climbing checks to get up a tree because the GM doesn't want him up there.

In a stealth scenario, you would make your stealth check once, and the GM would roll for each guard against your results (if it's even considered worth checking multiple guards). If/when one beats you, then we can have a conversation on that..becaaause..

Failure should be interesting. Every roll must impact the story, whether through success or failure. When a roll is failed, it is never simply "you did not succeed" but instead creates additional complications that make the story more interesting. You don't simply fail to climb the tree, a branch snaps and makes a loud noise that attracts attention - the guards are coming, what do you do now? The GMs job isn't to force you into a fight, but to provide you with tough decisions to make.

Most of what you have mentioned basically falls under the general rules that we have for when and how to roll dice in the first place. Whether it is appropriate to solve a stealth task with a single roll or with a more elaborate series of obstacles depends on how important that is to the story at hand and is more of a matter of GM-craft and pacing than mechanical distinction.

That said, we have been kicking around ideas for a more "formalized" subsystem for stealth, as it is a big part of the genre and action. What form that might ultimately take though, I'm not sure. If you've got ideas, we're always open.

[hector]

I'd say it mostly depends. In a game like GURPS, I'd probably run important stealth sections using the tactical combat rules, using a hex map to keep track of where the guards are and which way they're facing. Stealth rolls would be for things like moving quietly, while remaining hidden would be a matter of simply not stepping out into the open, and sticking to badly lit areas.

In a game like this, however, I'd probably split a big building into separate areas, and call for a stealth roll whenever a character moves from one into another. For instance, the badly lit front garden, the well lit interior (each floor; possibly each floor of each wing in a particularly big manor house), and each distinct outdoor area. Then, I'd have the opposed rolls be modified by things like how carefully the PC is moving, how well lit their environment is and things like that. Then, if a guard cries out, everyone in that area is alerted. They don't necessarily know what's happening, but they know that something is wrong.

[Marras]

Stealth subsystem would be awesome.

I agree that a failed roll is a failed roll. But as has been suggested maybe it just makes things more complicated. A creaking floorboard can alert the guard but maybe the thief is still able to avoid the detection at that spot. Still, I would be a bit more heavy handed and make the guard more alert and at least check out the most immediate area or even call other guards. Anyway the thief should be in a dire situation and look for a better place to hide or risk being detected.

To be a bit more abstract maybe use some sort of alertness meter? Every failed stealth roll have a specific effect depending on situation but it also raises the alertness meter. Alertness could be "healed" by certain successful measures like waiting at good place until things cool down.

[higgins]

Well, if we want to have a stealth system, we need to roll against someone. The question is... who would we be rolling against?

The obvious answer is of course "the guards", but... Simply making a series of skill rolls between the protagonist and the individual guardsmen doesn't sound interesting at all. Instead, you imagine a scene where the character is making the tactical choices on how they approach... watching patrol routes, finding shadows to hide in, climbing up walls, scurrying along roofs, etc.

So, just rolling vs guards isn't quite it.

In addition, stealth scenes are hard to pin down in general. There aren't many memorable ones that I can think of.

Conan the Barbarian is the main movie that comes to mind, but both major stealth scenes in it are basically used for exposition -- the characters sneak in and we get to see the day to day activities of the cult. That's great, but probably falls under plot convenience more than anything.

Most other memorable stealth scenes however boil down to inter character banter, so, that's basically occupying the scene with dialogue to skip the actual stealthing part.

Having discussed it at length, we reached the conclusion that in literature and films, stealth simply isn't an element anyone cares about. It is assumed that the stealthy character can get in and out of wherever without an issue, and most of the time we DO see them, it isn't even in the "vs guards" scenario, so much as doing things quietly in an empty room they aren't supposed to be in.

So, do you guys agree with this analysis? Or can you think of good stealth scenes that transcend these problems?

[Marras]

Personally I like stealth scenes

I like to play sneaky characters in RPGs and I enjoy them in video games, too. To analyze that a bit, here's what I think.

Usually stealth scenes are pretty solitary scenes. You actually play solo at these times and while it is great for the player it sucks for the rest of the party. Obviously that is not a problem with video games

In modern (or futuristic) RPGs we have used stealth as a group like when we infiltrated a Russian helicopter base in Twilight:2000 game. It was great but of course someone is bound to botch a roll at some point and then it's time improvise and hope you reach your objective(s) before having to retreat. I have also enjoyed reading these infiltration scenes in books (both in fiction and in spec ops missions that have been written).

But I think that you are correct that opposing a guard with your stealth roll might be a bit wrong approach (although it has worked to some extent so far). Maybe the opposition is the whole security setup? The amount of guards, their general competence, guard dogs, spells, traps and even amount of occupants in the area should all affect the security level.

Maybe you have to case the target first to get more or less correct security level in various areas of the target location? Perhaps you need to roll one area to "clear" it. Failed roll doesn't necessarily mean that you are immediately compromised but it can even mean that your character is tuck in a hide while two guards are approaching so your character can move without being noticed. That is not a big deal unless the character is in a hurry to do something so another party member can do his thing and keeping him waiting might compromise him!

These small infiltration subareas might be relatively easy to successfully pass (if you have a decent stealth) but if there are multiple of those the odds of failure stack. But then you might want to bypass some of those areas using other skill like acrobatics or something like that. This encourages creative thinking and use of wide variety of skills. For example instead of going through the garden and two levels of house the thief might throw a rope to the roof and go directly there. Then there is only getting to the target level and picking a lock to treasure room. Thus, less stealth rolls but he couldn't have done that with stealth alone, he needed that acrobatics (or whatever) skill, too

All in all, all those stealth scenes that I have played have been very intense and thus very memorable and interesting. Having said that, in the end stealth scenes are just transition scenes where characters move to the location where the action is. The real action can be a theft, assassination, recon or whatever. But still, that scene is important as the outcome of stealth can change the story a great deal. It is not irrelevant what happens in the infiltration part as the whole mission can be blown if it is botched. Even if the objective can be reached it might need some very desperate and dangerous measures (like combat against horrible odds). Heck, even exfil after a successful theft can go horribly wrong.

So, stealth scenes are important and interesting and it would be great to have a good subsystem for these.

[higgins]

You've touched upon two major points here:
a) multiple stealthy characters
b) an objective-based stealth system

Which is kind of funny, as these were the two main topics of our latest brainstorm with dear Agamemnon

I broke "A" into it's own thread. Let's keep discussing "B" here, but before we do that... I want to make one thing clear:

All in all, all those stealth scenes that I have played have been very intense and thus very memorable and interesting.

I believe you've misunderstood our core design philosophy here. When coming up with mechanics, we rarely, if ever, think of how we've handled things in the past, or how most other games/GMs handle things. Instead, we think of examples from good fiction and how to emulate that in the terms of feel and player options.

So, rather than thinking of awesome game experiences, we think of awesome scenes from movies that we've enjoyed. It's waaaay easier to have a common frame of reference like that, plus we can have a discussion about the strengths, weaknesses and coolest elements of a particular scene.

So, can you bring an example from fiction that... had a good, objective-based stealth scene, in the terms that you were describing?

Movies preferred.

[Marras]

Yes, I suppose I have misunderstood your design philosophy I just emphasized those parts as that's why I have liked those scenes in other RPGs.

I understand why movies and TV series are great for reference as they are pretty objective as opposed to RPG experiences that are totally subjective.

At the top of my head I remember one good stealth scene, more will probably come to my mind later At least from first Mission Impossible movie where Ethan Hunt breaks into the CIA (IIRC) vault to get some top secret intel. It shows how Hunt had to use multiple skills to pull that off.

Another was in Behind Enemy Lines III where a team of Navy SEALs infiltrates an enemy camp (reminds me of my Twilight:2000 example).

Still, I have to admit that you put quite a challenge here Movies tend to be pretty fast and really great stealth scenes that fit the bill that I am aiming at here might be quite sparse.

[Agamemnon]

It's a bit funny, this reads almost exactly like the conversation I had with Higgins last night. Apparently objective-based stealth is the way forward?

Certainly gives us a starting place.

Stealth scenes in literature and cinema are an odd thing. They simply just aren't worth describing or showing in any depth in any case unless during the course of that stealth something else happens. I read a book recently in which the main character was an assassin. Despite the entire book being about him becoming a master of stealth, the only part of the book I recall actually containing a stealth scene was squarely of the "They almost walked in on me. Fortunately I can hide behind this thing unseen and they will openly discuss their secret plans in front of me" variety.

For stealth, I'm realizing that we have to switch sources. The experiences you might be looking for simply aren't literary in nature. They come from the world of video games and the like, or in some cases mentioned - past RPG experience. So this will be an interesting experience in developing.

[hector]

This is why I would point out Thief: The Dark Project (or better yet, Thief 2) for good examples. Stealth in that game is tense, in spite of it being relatively forgiving at easier difficulties. Not being seen isn't a matter of quick movement, but of patience, observation and planning.

[Siggi]

This is why I would point out Thief: The Dark Project

Hey, hector, that's what I was just going to say! Such games as Thief and Hitman delivered the most thrilling stealth experience I've ever had.

It's a bit funny, this reads almost exactly like the conversation I had with Higgins last night.

Let me toss a couple of thoughts here. There are a few things that should be kept in mind when designing a stealth scene.

Stealth scenes usually take place in some hostile environment (someone's house, evil wizard's castle, enemy base, etc). The characters are unfamiliar with the layout of the place, so the stealth actions is often about finding your way around.

While surfing the place the characters usually don't know the exact location of guards. That said, the characters should never feel safe even if they are in an empty room: the guards can come in every moment.

The cliché RPG stealth scene goes as follows: a guard stands on duty and a character is trying to sneak past him. It is assumed that the character has already noticed the guard (or somehow knows his exact location), and all is left is to "sneak" past him. In computer games (and probably in real life) when you notice the guard it is often too late to hide. So, the character's goal is: 1). to notice the guard; 2). to do it before the guard notices the character; 3). find a place to hide immediately; 4). if all has gone well, devise a way to sneak past the guard.

That all said, the ability to "move silently" is not enough for a character who's trying to sneak into enemy's base (or whatever). It's a tremendous stress: walking slowly in an unfamiliar place, not knowing whether the next floorboard would creak, looking around 360° *all the time*, waiting for any one of the 2 (3? 5? 10?) doors to open and let in a bunch of armed guards (or something worse than that). Now that's what makes the thrill! How to simulate this in roleplaying game - I don't know for sure.

[hector]

Simulating the stress is something that can only really be done one way - by the GM running an intense scene. The best way for the mechanics to aid in that isn't to simulate stress on the character (the only game that ever worked in was Silent Hill, and that worked by quite subtly having the controller pulse in time with the character's heart beat, so the player could feel it too), but to run the stealth portions of gameplay in such a way that they feel like any cockup could get them caught, while still giving them a shot at correcting cockups as and when they happen. That's probably not particularly easy, but it's the same as how running a combat should involve as few references to game mechanics as possible. You should be describing things from their IC perspective at all times.

In short, stealth is hard to run effectively when the typical PC attitude to stealth is to treat it as a method of getting close enough to someone to kill them without taking damage rather than as a method of avoiding the conflict altogether. One way to do that could be to let them treat stealth in that manner, and then have the city guard spend more time investigating than they would a regular robbery, because some of their drinking buddies are dead. When avoiding detection for its own sake becomes important, putting that in jeopardy makes a hard stealth section just as intense as a hard combat can be.

[Marras]

I don't know whether stealth scenes are worth describing or not but they are definitely hard to do as vividly as action scenes like combat and chases.

I think at least some of the Andy McNab's Nick Stone books contain good (or at least decent) stealth scenes describing how the protagonist had to make sure not to disturb the foliage as the guards attuned to location would notice turned leaves even in dimmer light.

Anyway that gave a nice factor to think about, location awareness. Maybe that could be used to gauge (at least partly) how well the guards know the area. What things are where? What are the best places to hide or move unnoticed? That would be actually a counter-thief ability or rating.

More examples of stealth games would be Dishonored (could also work somewhat as background idea for a game). Splinter Cell series is another quite good but Metal Gear Solid series is even better, IMHO. Curiously enough Assassins Creed is too low on stealth to qualify here

Siggi gave a good example on stealth scene. I think one of the aspects that might benefit from changing is that in current RPGs failed stealth roll usually means instant failure. To make things more story oriented having a chance react to failure might increase the pressure gradually and still make a successful sneaking even more probable.

I agree that move silently is not enough but stealth is partly about moving silently, partly managing to keep hidden and also keeping your nerve. Is this all grouped into one skill or split, I don't know but having this split to sneaking and hiding is not all that good idea to me.

If you won't get rewarded for killing a guard (as is in D&D) that stops at least part of the unnecessary kills. When you have to take care of the dead or even unconscious bodies to avoid detection it can be actually easier to just evade the guards than just go with more straightforward way. Of course there are these less mission oriented aspects like Hector mentioned to consider, too.

One more thing to add to this rather long post. I don't know if this is relevant to the topic, but to my knowledge many infiltrations were done on a broad daylight using appropriate costumes and by projecting "aura" of belonging to the place. Maybe that should be part of the social combat rather than stealth scene?

[higgins]

Still, I have to admit that you put quite a challenge here Movies tend to be pretty fast and really great stealth scenes that fit the bill that I am aiming at here might be quite sparse.

Ain't that the truth. The main scenes I thought of were from Conan the Barbarian and... that was pretty much it.

I need to re-watch Mission Impossible then and... check out Behind Enemy Lines III.

Those are both modern though and the addition of firearms makes stealth different, especially in a military context. As it seems like you're into that kind of stuff, check out Act of Valor, Zero Dark Thirty for stealth scenes and also Strike Back (LOVE that series).

This is why I would point out Thief: The Dark Project (or better yet, Thief 2) for good examples. Stealth in that game is tense, in spite of it being relatively forgiving at easier difficulties. Not being seen isn't a matter of quick movement, but of patience, observation and planning.

Excellent point. We were just looking at the Thief games and unsure which one to get. I guess now we know

Stealth scenes usually take place in some hostile environment (someone's house, evil wizard's castle, enemy base, etc). The characters are unfamiliar with the layout of the place, so the stealth actions is often about finding your way around.

Actually, this is the easiest one to cover. We have situational modifiers built into the game engine, so, basic awareness of the layout would be "normal", unfamiliar location would be Disadvantaged and home turf would be Advantaged.

The cliché RPG stealth scene goes as follows: a guard stands on duty and a character is trying to sneak past him. It is assumed that the character has already noticed the guard (or somehow knows his exact location), and all is left is to "sneak" past him. In computer games (and probably in real life) when you notice the guard it is often too late to hide. So, the character's goal is: 1). to notice the guard; 2). to do it before the guard notices the character; 3). find a place to hide immediately; 4). if all has gone well, devise a way to sneak past the guard.

That's an excellent analysis but... basically, cliché would be character rolling Agility/Stealth (physical sneakiness) and PC game would be the character rolling Cunning/Stealth (aware sneakiness). So, as both basically boil down to a roll to "avoid the guard" then they still feel pretty much the same, no?

That all said, the ability to "move silently" is not enough for a character who's trying to sneak into enemy's base (or whatever). It's a tremendous stress: walking slowly in an unfamiliar place, not knowing whether the next floorboard would creak, looking around 360° *all the time*, waiting for any one of the 2 (3? 5? 10?) doors to open and let in a bunch of armed guards (or something worse than that). Now that's what makes the thrill!

I wonder how to encourage that model mechanically

[Marras]

It's true that modern weapons and technology make stealth scenes different but I don't remember many stealth scenes from fantasy/historical films. I think there was one scene in Captain Alatriste movie. Still not exactly similar to that in Conan the Barbarian movie.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out. I agree, Strike Back is an excellent series and third season had a pretty nice stealth scene at the episode one or two, IIRC.

I thought a bit about this whole stealth scene thing yesterday and here's what I came up.

You can think of the stealth scene like a combat. Both of them have objectives, something that prevents you from reaching that objective and something that helps to reach that. In combat the objective is most often to neutralize the target, opposing factor is armor, weapons and skill of the opponent. Helping factor is your own armor, weapons and skill. In addition to those you have maneuvers and other factors like lightning etc. (I don't really know how that affects combat but that's an example of other possible variables).

To compare that to stealth scene your objective can vary wildly and can be a scene itself (like picking a lock of a strongbox, assassinating a sleeping man or planting false evidence to a chosen location). Local guards etc. are the hindrance, they are the weapon and armor in this scene. Your own gear and skill is the helping factor in this one.

To model the stress you might have some sort of stress point system like HP system in D&D. I use this as an example as I don't know if it would even work thematically in Bastards. Every time you fail your stealth roll, you gain stress (like damage) and when your stress is too great you can no longer function in total efficiency. Obviously this can be gradual degradation. Maybe you can choose a maneuver to "heal" part of that stress by just finding a place to catch your breath and plan your next move?

I would suggest to divide stealth dice to two pools named for example hiding and movement. They should be similar to defence and attack pools in combat. In stealth hiding means that guards don't notice you and thus you don't get more stress. Movement means that you penetrate further into the objective. So, you can place all dice to hiding and then you won't proceed towards your objective but stay hidden. Placing all dice to movement means that you throw caution to the wind and most likely get some stress but you can move very quickly towards the objective.