Zornhau Forums

So we've been talking back and forth a bit on how we want to actually present the pdfs for the beta. Right now, the game exists as a series of google docs which are perfect for our purposes, but we can't exactly release them that way. So the next step is for me to throw it all into InDesign for formatting and setting it up to be the proper pdf release.

So here's my question to the masses:

Our two basic options are 8.5x11, classic "Big Book" format that most RPGs put out as, probably in double-column text, or to do the whole thing in A5, like a hardback novel.

The former approach is traditional, and tends to just be a nice book setup anyway. It provides a lot of realestate for tables, and eventually artwork and layout. Takes up more space, but is easier to keep open. It also has that great "official" feel to it that we've come to expect for an RPG release.

The latter is more akin to what some indie games - most notably Burning Wheel - have been doing for a while. A5 has a handful of its own advantages. It is a good book that fits well in the hand, doesn't take up as much space on a table top, it's easier to flip through to find information.. and perhaps most notably for our purposes: the smaller size means that it's more easily read on mobile devices (phones, tablets), and it can be printed two to a page on a printer if you want, as well as taking up less space on a computer screen if you're trying to reference it while doing something else.

On the other hand, there's something inherently appealing about the classic big tome style of game book.

Weigh in, if you please.

A good question indeed! I agree upon everything that's been said regarding "Big Book" format, 'oficial' feel, two columns of text, etc. This is probably the proper way to make such book as this one!

On the other hand, it is more comfortable to read A5-formated document on tablets and on our wide screen monitors. I'm currently running a Game of Thrones campaign (a "Big Book" game) and each time that I need to look something up in the rulebook, I find it frustrating: the page is just too big to fit on my screen! So, I have to zoom it in and scroll up and down to read one and the same page. The same thing with my tablet: I always have to zoom in to read the text properly.

Bearing in mind that most of us (all of us!) are going to read the rules from our beloved screens, I believe that A5 option would work better for the purposes of Beta. As for the final release of the game - you always can reconsider and it would probably be better to make it a classical large tome, with columns, beautiful illustrations, tables and everything.

So, at this time my vote is for A5.

That's a point - bearing in mind that this is still beta, there's time to change the layout if it doesn't work.

For the final product I prefer big book format but as long as the font is clear and large enough A5 format might work, too.

As for what would work for beta, might be landscape format. It works nice when reading from computer screen and it also reads pretty well from 10" tablet. I have Nova Praxis Augmented PDF (final product) and although it is optimized for iPad it works well enough for my Android tablet. So, if this kind of formatting would be possible, it would be awesome!

I like the 'big book' style. Being an old-school kind of guy, rule books get carried in the same bag as various notes, downloads, errata which are generally A4. It makes packing easier. Smaller books tend to slip down to the bottom to get lost among the rubble.

I'm pretty sure that the stuff Pinnacle (the savage worlds) have done in two size are simply bigger and smaller versions of the same layout. Small books are handy for an individual but the larger ones are good for those times where you're looking over someone's shoulder.

Marras wrote:Nova Praxis Augmented PDF

For reference:


youtu.be/biBxNCZ1d1s

higgins wrote:

Marras wrote:Nova Praxis Augmented PDF

For reference:


youtu.be/biBxNCZ1d1s

That is a very cool video. Clearly too ambitious for a beta release, but I had some ideas about making the pdf as useful as possible for final publication already.

Right now I'm leaning towards formatting the beta pdf as a 6x9 - or trade hardback, like some of the larger novels you come across. It has most of the above benefits mentioned of A5, and gives us just a touch more real-estate to play with. It's also the most common "print on demand" option for smaller books, which will give us some options on that front.

This shouldn't be taken as any indication that we're going to publish the final work in 6x9 - though the beta responses will definitely help weigh how useful the format is - it just seems the best way to go when we know everyone is going to be working on from a pdf.

That said, if you guys have any other suggestions about the book in general, by all means let us know. I'm definitely looking for as many ways to make the final product as useful and easy to navigate as possible.

I am by any means not suggesting that rules should be presented in this form as it must be quite a bit of work but this shows how well landscape format works for tablets and computers.

Thanks for the link, Higgins!

I'm late to this discussion, but maybe not TOO late. If you are making a print product, I would vote for the larger format. Smaller formats make it difficult to lay the book flat on the table and keep it open to a given page. That's a very basic and common functionality to consider. If you are going digital-only, then definitely optimize it for tablet screens (not phones—a few people might want to use their phones, but the reality is phones are just too small to be practical for a game book). Landscape or portrait is up to you. Ultimate page size doesn't matter so much as the ratio of the font size to the page size, since PDFs can be zoomed to fit the screen.

If you are going digital AND print, heaven help you. There's no way to optimize for both in a single format. You'll have to pick one or put in the time and resources to do both well. That could be a stretch goal if you are doing a crowdsourcing campaign.

Daeruin wrote:I'm late to this discussion, but maybe not TOO late. If you are making a print product, I would vote for the larger format. Smaller formats make it difficult to lay the book flat on the table and keep it open to a given page. That's a very basic and common functionality to consider. If you are going digital-only, then definitely optimize it for tablet screens (not phones—a few people might want to use their phones, but the reality is phones are just too small to be practical for a game book). Landscape or portrait is up to you. Ultimate page size doesn't matter so much as the ratio of the font size to the page size, since PDFs can be zoomed to fit the screen.

If you are going digital AND print, heaven help you. There's no way to optimize for both in a single format. You'll have to pick one or put in the time and resources to do both well. That could be a stretch goal if you are doing a crowdsourcing campaign.

Since it was brought back up, I originally set it up as a 6x9" hardback format, and was reasonably happy with the way it was going. As things went on though, I felt more and more claustrophobic. Things seemed crowded and it was just hard to get good spacing out of it.

As of now, the beta draft is about 60 pages completed and in 8.5x11" format. To help address the "mobile friendly" the body text is all slightly larger - 11point, where most books are in 10 at that size - and the layout is as such that most sections are in a form of single-column text.

I am actually pretty happy with the way it stands now, and Henri comments on it every time I update it. Unless we release it and you guys just hate it, it may be what we go with for the print release.

Agamemnon wrote: To help address the "mobile friendly" the body text is all slightly larger - 11point, where most books are in 10 at that size - and the layout is as such that most sections are in a form of single-column text.

Unless we release it and you guys just hate it, it may be what we go with for the print release.

Sounds good to me. I like printed rules to use a slightly larger font.

Reading this just now, Agamemnon, i think you'll probably have to do both formats eventually.

(I'm kidding, i'm kidding!)

nemedeus wrote:Reading this just now, Agamemnon, i think you'll probably have to do both formats eventually.

(I'm kidding, i'm kidding!)

I can see it before me: The first Release a classic A4, and then, no less but probably more than five years later, a revised edition in A5 which will be another five years of extensive alpha testing and an overwhelming amount of pre-pre-release polishing...


(I am a bad person.)

Honestly, the next whatever I work on will probably be in an A5 (or perhaps more likely hardback novel 6"x9") format. The more I've played with my copy of Burning Wheel Gold, and the more I do things digitally, I've really grown fond of it.

The primary reason we went for big book format for 'Bastards was simply because we had a couple big tables that it would be a pain to reformat. The wound table was the worst offender.