Agamemnon wrote:More seriously, though, this is the sort of thing that actually recommends the detailed approach. It lets you insert interesting bits like this. Your average person will have never thought about the difference. Similarly, I fancy the idea of including more obscure information that you never really see in games -- values of trade goods, costs of life events (weddings, dowries, funerals), etc.
Yeah, the equipment list is a great place to direct what you think the games goals should be about. If you have prices for digging moats and hiring guards, don't be surprised when people starting building castles. If you want to focus on skullduggery and drama you need to jam in prices for things like smuggling, assassinations and a table for how much it is to bribe a judge for various crimes.
Agamemnon wrote:This brings me to an interesting thought, though. As pointed out, so much of the cost of an quickly gets wound up in status displays. How do we convince our player-controlled noble that he really wants to pay twice the price for his longsword as the mercenary he employs?
The "obvious" way is to make the more expensive stuff better, which is the way almost every other game does it. But then if there is no sumptuary laws then everyone end up using the same stuff. And if there are sumptuary laws then whatever the bonuses are on the "better gear" more or less become "features" that nobles get that commoners don't.
While that would be easy enough and make sense for some things, (eg warhorse have better Willpower than rouncy or that expensive armor makes you more likely to be captured alive for ransom) that doesn't really seem like the Scoundrels way. And it kind of falls apart for things like clothing and swords. Similarly, you could come up with penalties for people not spending according to their social standing but that just makes you want stay a commoner.
Pendragon does something different that solves it magnificently. Basically, instead of trying to convince you that buying each individual overpriced item is worth it, they just let your pour all your money into the nebulous money sink of your "manor". No matter what you spend the money on (be it silk robes, a wedding, a tapestry or a fancy sword) it gives you 1 glory per $ you "waste" on frivolous conspicuous spending. Since glory compounds each year, the player is always motivated to splurge their money ASAP (once they have adequate fighting equipment) and then go out and make more. What they spend the money on is mostly a reflection of the character and a good role playing opportunity, but you are still required to actually make the money needed to pay up a dowry or feast if the story demands it. Since you are so heavily incentivized to not save money up, even nobles come up short quite often (which is great).
Pendragon also has some really great roleplaying insights into how it recommends a knight think about money. I've copied some interesting bits here:
Pendragon wrote:UNDERSTANDING WEALTH
Value is important because wealth is measured as a standard of living and property, not necessarily cash on hand. The daily measure of wealth is that which can be seen and partaken of. Rich people eat better, wear fancier clothes, and have more luxurious homes.
Land is the time-honored basis for measuring one’s economic success; the more land a character gains, the stronger his economic position. Land provides the basics of life, the people to husband it, and the raw materials to be turned into profit. Thus the manor is the basic source of economic measure for knights.
Noblemen are notoriously short of money. Being important is expensive! In addition to his own expenses, a noble’s virtue is reflected by his largesse, and if he wants to be famous within his social circle, he should reward favorable behavior with an open hand.
Conspicuous consumption is the rule among knights. No one saves money, except perhaps to put aside a few libra for imminent expenses. Traveling to the nearby city to buy new equipment, gifts for lovers, or other items is a pleasant event after the slaughter and trouble of an adventure or battle. Most of the time knowing the particular items bought isn’t necessary — it is sufficient merely to say “I’m spending £10 on my manor,” for instance — but sometimes the details are important, or just fun, so this price list offers prices for some really large items, if desired.
IMPOVERISHED
A knight who spends less than £3 per year is Impoverished. His is a miserable lot. He appears ragged, most likely lean and sickly, and his armor pitted and rusty. He has no squire and often lacks a horse of any kind. As a result, an Impoverished knight counts only as a sergeant in battle (see “Ransom”), even though he may be far more skilled or valorous. Legally, impoverishment means trouble. If a vassal knight neglects his land to the point of impoverishment, the lord has the right to cancel their agreement and take the land back: The vassal has clearly failed to maintain the land and uphold his end of the feudal bargain.
RANSOM
Ransoming captives from battle is the single most lucrative (and probably the most dangerous) way to get money. Everyone captured alive in battle is worth money to his captor. The ransoms given here are based on roughly three years’ average income, the minimum acceptable amount. Particularly proud knights may offer to pay more for their release, but most are generally satisfied to offer or accept the ransoms below.
Rank Ransom
Sergeant £4
Squire £6
Knight, bachelor £12
Knight, landed (vassal) £18
Knight, banneret £150
Baron £550
Earl or praetor £1100
Duke or pennath £1600
King or independent ruler £2150
LOANS
Loans are possible, but to be avoided at all costs since it puts the fate of nobles in the hands of peasant-class merchants. (These city dwellers are the only people likely to have any money to lend.*) They always charge interest on loans, sometimes as much as 50% a year. (Usury!) Alternately, moneylenders may extract promises odious to lords. For instance, they might bargain for promises of freedoms from future taxes, or maybe even the right to marry the daughters of the lord (or to have their sons do so, or their daughters marry the lord’s sons), thereby ensuring that their own children will become nobles.
STANDARD PRICE LIST
Note: Prices listed are non-negotiable. (It is beneath a knight to bicker with a merchant, anyway.)
So putting all this together you need:
- To make lifestyle and spending an infinite money sink
- That rewards ALL KINDS of "wasted" money
- Gives bonuses you definitely want but won't break the game if they get huge
- And an incentive to splurge now instead of saving up until you can afford the next bonus
The most obvious way for S&S to do something similar would be to allow the purchase of Drive or Karma points through conspicuous spending. The only adjustment it would really need is flattening out the seasonal income of the social classes so nobles don't just out level commoners. It also harkens back to 1e DND gold for XP shenanigans and incentives planning out a huge heist. It's kind of like everyone having access to the "vain" flaw. Splurge 100sp and get 1 SA.
Tying more things to SAs probably isn't ideal. But the alternative would be introducing some kind of Influence or Reputation system for conspicuous spending... that can be used to make connections, bribes or give bonuses to social skills.
Agamemnon wrote:Purchasing things is resolved with a roll, with the expense of the item being represented by the req required for the roll. Money is handled between a wealth stat that changes only gradually and is rolled like any other stat, and a pool of expendable currency that can be spent to reduce a req on an item -- up to and including making it free. The same currency is also the only way to increase your wealth stat, so you've got the game of deciding whether to use the liquid funds directly, or invest it in a more renewable form.
This might be very similar, but here's some ideas:
You have a Wealth stat from 0-10 based on social class and edges at start. Wealth represents your land, owned businesses and standard of living. This can't really be robbed.
You have Cash, which you can hold any amount of. Cash represents the value of what you have on your person that you can make purchases with on the spot. If you get robbed or taken prisoner, you are losing all your Cash.
To purchase an item mid adventure, you roll your Wealth or spend your Cash.
You can Sell 1 Wealth level for Cash equal to 2x the Wealth level.
You can Buy 1 Wealth level for Cash equal to 5x the Wealth level.
Each season you gain an amount of seasonal Cash according to your Wealth level.
Each season you have to pay seasonal Cash as Upkeep according to your equipment (horse, armor etc).
Purchasing outside the adventure doesn't take a roll, you just spend the seasonal Cash.
Any left over seasonal Cash goes to your personal belongings.
Instead of buying, you can Rent something for 2x it's upkeep cost.
This has the effect of allowing Wealthy people to maintain upkeep of things like silk clothes, fancy armor and horses indefinitely while poorer people could get the same for limited time (or continuously make more money).
), and let GMs tinker with it. 