Zornhau Forums

Debating on the presentation of maneuvers. I have two options in how certain information can be presented.

Option A: I have a series of maneuvers specific to applications of certain weapons. Pommel Strike, Punch, Kick, Shield Bash, etc. and park the specific damage figures inside of the maneuvers.

Option B: All of the above could easily be just applications of the normal Swing or Thrust maneuvers, with pommels, fists, feet, and shields just considered the weapon you use it with and thus the damage figures are listed on the sheet with any other weapons they have.

The above choice decides whether you'd have "Block" and "Parry" As separate things, or if you'd just have "Deflect" as a maneuver that covered both. Similarly, Murder Stroke doesn't need to be a thing if two-handed sword pommels do more damage than one-handed sword pommels.

A gives us a little more room to make fiddly tweaks and specifications if we wanted. B makes things simpler in terms of "maneuvers to memorize" at the cost of having more stuff to jot down on your sheet for reference.

Agamemnon wrote:The above choice decides whether you'd have "Block" and "Parry" As separate things, or if you'd just have "Deflect" as a maneuver that covered both.

Don't know what you are going to do with Shield Bashes and Pushes, but currently they have this fun quality: can be Blocked, but not Parried. I liked this, as it adds something interesting to the fight. I'd vote to leave it as it is. That would mean Shield Bashes / Pushes should be presented as a Maneuver. The rest (kicks etc) can be under Swings and Thrusts.
But if I have to choose, I vote "B".

I voted A, with this reasoning: I think some Maneuvers should be specific. I said this before, Longsword for example is a particularly cool Proficiency because it has it's own "Special Move". I think for example Kick should, and could, be its own Maneuver, and tbh if you cut the number of maneuvers down anyway, i hope you don't cut it down too much. But it remains to be seen.

Voted B. However I'd like to point some things.

Murder strike IS a thing. Nothing to do with regular pommel strikes. Different application and physics. Besides, two-handed pommel strikes already deal more damage than one-handed pommel strikes.

If you are going to overhaul and cut down maneuvers in this way, I'd prefer it to entirely change Emphases from the existing 20ish-words ones.

And example:

Longsword wrote:Blade to Blade

• Attacking from the Wind grants Advantage
• Swing can be augmented to Mastercut at +1AC
• Mastercut (augmentation): description

Which means, less Maneuvers, same (or more) Emphasis+Weapon related Augmentations.

Korbel wrote:Don't know what you are going to do with Shield Bashes and Pushes, but currently they have this fun quality: can be Blocked, but not Parried. I liked this, as it adds something interesting to the fight. I'd vote to leave it as it is.

Point. Though one could also assign that as a property of shields in general and other like mechanics could also say "can only be Deflected with a shield"

nemedeus wrote: I said this before, Longsword for example is a particularly cool Proficiency because it has it's own "Special Move".

Certain things will stay regardless. I haven't found a better way to do Mastercut, for instance.

Benedict wrote:If you are going to overhaul and cut down maneuvers in this way, I'd prefer it to entirely change Emphases from the existing 20ish-words ones.

And example:

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, but I didn't quite follow your meaning.

So I voted A.

The possible ways to do some merging are slim unless you are willing to lose the special aspects of each maneuver (and at that point you are really just deleting maneuvers).

If you try something like:

Maneuver
Deflect: Use deflect statistics to negate a blow

Equipment
Sword:
deflect value BTN
deflect AC0
Cannot deflect shield attacks

Shield:
deflect value FTN
deflect AC0

Naked:
deflect value BTN
deflect AC1
On success don't automatically gain initiative

Then you are effectively just moving the information from the Parry, Block and Dodge maneuver to the equipment.

Advantages:

• Allows for the possibility for different Shields and Weapons having different Deflect/Attack Values or rules
• Makes a tighter looking maneuvers list
• Potentially less book opening for advanced players with more info on character sheet

Disadvantages

• Psychologically this makes S&S more like an Equipment Porn Game, rather than a Tactical Maneuvers Game
• If all the information goes on the character sheet:
  • you probably wont have enough room for every offensive and defensive use of every item as well as special rules for the arsenal characters love to carry
  • Changing equipment around will be a pain
  • Will constantly have to check the statistics and special rules for item being used to make sure it works
  • Need to write down on character sheet all the naked character statistics
  • A lot of redundant information is taking up space the character sheet
• If it all goes in the equipment section of the book
  • Constantly have to flip to different sections of the rulebook to see what your best option is (You might even have to check the maneuver section, the sword section and the shield section when trying to figure out if you can Counter a Shield Push!)
• If you try to split it up in some way (say Deflect values on sheet, special rules in equipment) you are just setting people up to fail.

In my opinion you should keep as much relevant information in a single place as possible. Ideally, I will never have to open the rulebook to run a combat if there are amazing DM screens and character sheets. If that is not possible, I should be able to keep the book open at a single chapter instead of having to switch between chapters. Any book diving beyond that is a serious detriment.

And remember you have maneuvers like Wind and Hold, which you stand no chance of being able to incorporate into the character sheet or equipment section so I'm going to have to open the book to Maneuvers anyway! With some maneuver information on the character sheet, some in the maneuvers sections, and some special rules in the equipment section... jeez, I just can't see it working; especially for a new player trying to learn a difficult game and seeing all these cross references pointing between sections.