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nemedeus wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:If there is role-playing left to be done, (as is occasionally the case in NPC talking scenes) go ahead and do it. Then roll the dice (perhaps with a dis/advantage based on the content and context of the RP). The result tells you how the scene develops.

This pretty much answers my question. I had presupposed "roleplay then rollplay", but unless i have misunderstood something in the BW book, it describes at some point the other way around, first making the test, then roleplaying, so that's why i wasn't sure.

If you ever watch Adam Kobel's Burning Wheel campaign, he works in a very similar fashion.

To be very frank, i'm not quite sure wheter i should/want to follow Kobel's works. I've heard he's somewhat of an SJW (and his hairdo is certainly not helping to dispel that notion ;p ).

I guess i should give him the benefit of the doubt. What says you?

I've said this about James Raggi and Zak S, and I'll say it about Adam Kobel: I deeply wish we could as a society go back to caring about the work people produced rather than the ideologies of the creators. I don't like the politics of a lot of the people whose content I consume, but so long as that content isn't an obvious pulpit for said politics, I'm more than willing to judge it on its own merits. I'm fairly certain that Kobel identifies himself as a progressive, but I can also say that said politics don't play an overwhelming role in what I've seen of his work on roll20.

Take people's work on its own merits.

If your interested in Burning Wheel AP, Shaun Hayworth has several on his YouTube channel, including one that is currently ongoing.

I have watched several of Kobel's livestreams, and I personally felt that the extent to which he injects his politics into them was somewhat off-putting. But maybe that's just me. (For comparison, Hayworth also seems to be a political progressive, but this doesn't really seem to come through in his APs.)

Edit: I should specify that I think that Kobel's game livestreams have a lot of very positive aspects to them: they are very creative and entertaining, and Kobel himself is a masterful GM, and I would certainly recommend them as exemplary of how games should be run. They also make me rather uncomfortable at times. Overall, I'm glad that he's making them.

taelor wrote:If your interested in Burning Wheel AP, Shaun Hayworth has several on his YouTube channel, including one that is currently ongoing.

I have watched several of Kobel's livestreams, and I personally felt that the extent to which he injects his politics into them was somewhat off-putting. But maybe that's just me. (For comparison, Hayworth also seems to be a political progressive, but this doesn't really seem to come through in his APs.)

That's fair. I haven't really noticed much in the BW series. One could make an argument for the subject matter to be somehow an endorsement or romanticization of the communist revolutions, but once you get a bit further in and the party returns to civilization, he does paint the revolution as not all it was cracked up to be. I'm nowhere near current on this series, though, so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Agamemnon wrote:
I've said this about James Raggi and Zak S, and I'll say it about Adam Kobel: I deeply wish we could as a society go back to caring about the work people produced rather than the ideologies of the creators. I don't like the politics of a lot of the people whose content I consume, but so long as that content isn't an obvious pulpit for said politics, I'm more than willing to judge it on its own merits. I'm fairly certain that Kobel identifies himself as a progressive, but I can also say that said politics don't play an overwhelming role in what I've seen of his work on roll20.

Take people's work on its own merits.

Well said! If the politics of the creator show on the product and I don't like them, I don't buy them. Simple as that. I follow Jams Raggi on G+ and frankly I don't know anything special about his political views although he is otherwise quite vocal. I know what Zak S is accused of but somehow I have not seen that myself from what I have read from his blog etc.

I am still waiting to see what heresies you guys harbor

Marras wrote:I am still waiting to see what heresies you guys harbor

Oh, we are full of heresies, I assure you.

But yes. If someone's politics/ideology/whatever isn't being pushed into their work, I don't care what the creator's ideology is. Just make cool games and I will play them!

I've watched an awful lot of Adam Kobel's actual plays. He does have very strong options and it is pretty obvious what they are. His Roll20 campaigns are definitely the more overtly "SJW" campaigns but that's mostly because he invited players that have similar options to him. For example in the Apocalypse World and Mage The Ascention campaigns there is a player that chooses to play androgynous or not straight characters and there is a lot of discussions about what pronouns everyone prefers.

His Rollplay campaigns with ItmeJP are quite different. Those players weren't picked by Adam and are more traditional. They frequently make sexist and/or gay jokes and nobody gets bent out of shape. The extent of the proselytizing in these campaigns is every now and then a gay or non-white NPC is used and the story moves on.

Overall, he runs campaigns to have the setting challenge the values of the characters within them. In his scifi game (Swan Song) he dives straight into things like AI rights. In his Cyber Punk game (Mirror Shades) it deals a lot with racism towards Orcs and Trolls. Those are the things those settings are about. Overall he is an excellent DM, if only because of his way to always adapt and incorporate whatever his players throw at him and his rich diversity of characters he is capable of portraying.

thirtythr33 wrote:I've watched an awful lot of Adam Kobel's actual plays. He does have very strong options and it is pretty obvious what they are. His Roll20 campaigns are definitely the more overtly "SJW" campaigns but that's mostly because he invited players that have similar options to him. For example in the Apocalypse World and Mage The Ascention campaigns there is a player that chooses to play androgynous or not straight characters and there is a lot of discussions about what pronouns everyone prefers.

His Rollplay campaigns with ItmeJP are quite different. Those players weren't picked by Adam and are more traditional. They frequently make sexist and/or gay jokes and nobody gets bent out of shape. The extent of the proselytizing in these campaigns is every now and then a gay or non-white NPC is used and the story moves on.

Overall, he runs campaigns to have the setting challenge the values of the characters within them. In his scifi game (Swan Song) he dives straight into things like AI rights. In his Cyber Punk game (Mirror Shades) it deals a lot with racism towards Orcs and Trolls. Those are the things those settings are about. Overall he is an excellent DM, if only because of his way to always adapt and incorporate whatever his players throw at him and his rich diversity of characters he is capable of portraying.

Also completely fair. I've never seen anything the Apocalypse World or Mage campaigns. My only experience with him has been Burning Wheel, and a few episodes of both Mirror Shades and Swan Song, neither of which I really stuck around for — though I'd be lying if I said I didn't desperately want to do a cyberpunk game one day. Politics and propaganda aside, from what I've seen of him he seemed like a good GM. Gets into his NPCs, is fairly creative in the scenarios he introduces, and adapts well to his players. Wonder what he'd make of 'Bastards?

Note to self: Come back and prune this whole discussion to a general discussion thread when it's not 2am.

I have looked over Monster Hearts which is based on Apocalypse World's system, and while i think it is a magnificent narrative game, its origins and subsequent popularity among the Progressive/Indie gaming circles gives insigt on just how hypocritical and unaware of themselves the Progressive Folks often seem to be.

To me, Ideologues are a strange people; they seem to be immune to cognitive dissonance. Just take Ben Carson for example. I will never really get how one can be both a Natural Scientist and Young Earth Creationist at the same time -- it doesn't make sense to me.


I honestly don't mind Queer (or Non-White) characters, themes etc. (that would be quite hypocritical of me, if you know what i mean), i just get the feeling it's all too often politicised nowadays.

That, and i really, really despise Historical Revisionism. Talking about developments in Intersectionality here -- it's just pure evil in my book when even historic depictions of abolished societal systems like slavery are an offence. Or, you know, the (intended to vilify Jeoffry) rape scene in Game of Thrones that the leftist media got riled up about. Context sensitivity is important and useful, and Ideologues seem to direly lack it.




Different quarry, but i have to make sure: Roll20.
From the few glimpses I got, I had the gut feeling that it's quite a progressive leaning social space -- is this the case, or was that undue paranoia on my part?
Just so i can be prepared.




I apologize for the politics. Dear mods, feel free to delete this post if you think it's too out in the open.

nemedeus wrote:Just how hypocritical and unaware of themselves the Progressive Folks often seem to be.

I imagine many a progressive would similarly describe you as being hypocritical and unaware. I think that's the thing about politics, neither side can possibly fathom how anyone of a right mind could disagree with them on things they find to be self evident.

nemedeus wrote:That, and i really, really despise Historical Revisionism.

This is something I sympathies with you on. Especially white washing historical pieces. Isn't funny how Christian Bale can play the part of Moses and nobody bats an eye but having Idris Elba play James Bond is just not acceptable?

Having said that, I don't mind when it's being done in a fantasy setting. The wizard is an Elf that can shoot fire out his arse, so is it really so unreasonable for someone to play a black female Knight?

nemedeus wrote:Different quarry, but i have to make sure: Roll20.
From the few glimpses I got, I had the gut feeling that it's quite a progressive leaning social space -- is this the case, or was that undue paranoia on my part?

If you mean Roll20 the Actual Play videos, then yes the community is very progressive. I would recommend the Actual Plays done by ItmeJP if you can't stand that kind thing.

If you mean to use Roll20 to make a group of your own to play with, I don't think you will have any problems at all. I doubt politics will ever even come up in conversation.

As someone who's social circles includes both SJists and NRxers, can I say that I'm not a big fan of partisan sniping intruding into what is supposed to be an apolitical hobby. I get enough of that in my regular life. Both sides have said their pieces; can we please let this end here?

nemedeus wrote:To me, Ideologues are a strange people; they seem to be immune to cognitive dissonance. Just take Ben Carson for example. I will never really get how one can be both a Natural Scientist and Young Earth Creationist at the same time -- it doesn't make sense to me.

You'd be surprised at the level of cognitive dissonance people can achieve. As an example, one of the people in my department (physics) is a young earth creationist; he is also a nuclear physicist. I don't even know where to begin explaining that one.

thirtythr33 wrote:

nemedeus wrote:Just how hypocritical and unaware of themselves the Progressive Folks often seem to be.

I imagine many a progressive would similarly describe you as being hypocritical and unaware. I think that's the thing about politics, neither side can possibly fathom how anyone of a right mind could disagree with them on things they find to be self evident.

Relevant article: The Other Side Is Not Dumb.

thirtythr33 wrote:

nemedeus wrote:That, and i really, really despise Historical Revisionism.

This is something I sympathies with you on. Especially white washing historical pieces. Isn't funny how Christian Bale can play the part of Moses and nobody bats an eye but having Idris Elba play James Bond is just not acceptable?

I agree that the amount of white-washing of non-white ethnicities in Hollywood movies is ridiculous, especially when there are talented actors of the appropriate ethnicity. Changing the ethnicity of a character (whether fictional or not) simply for the sake of changing its ethnicity (as in the case of people who want Idris Elba to play James Bond) is equally ridiculous. However, changing it in order to tell a new story where that change serves a narrative purpose is not a bad idea.

thirtythr33 wrote:Having said that, I don't mind when it's being done in a fantasy setting. The wizard is an Elf that can shoot fire out his arse, so is it really so unreasonable for someone to play a black female Knight?

That depends on the setting I'd say. A setting based on historical Europe will most likely still have racist and sexist tendencies, so playing a black female knight might be possible, but could also lead to stares and possible insults (in the game, of course). Though one can also subvert these stereotypes with interesting cultures in your setting (eg. a culture where only black females may be knights).

PsiPhire wrote:Changing the ethnicity of a character (whether fictional or not) simply for the sake of changing its ethnicity (as in the case of people who want Idris Elba to play James Bond) is equally ridiculous.

I thought it was generally accepted that the numerous James Bonds are not actually all the same person, but that James Bond is a kind of spy identity adopted by successive agents. If that's the case, then I see no problem with Idris playing Bond. I could be wrong though, but I think there have be several movies where you see Bond being recruited for the first time. Even if that's not the case the whole series is rife with so many reboots and continuity errors that they might as well all be different characters.

On the other hand where the Human Torch was going to be cast as a black man in Fantastic Four, I completely agree with you. In that case it would have actually hurt the concept of the character since it would strain credulity that he was a blood relative of the Invisible Woman.

PsiPhire wrote:A setting based on historical Europe will most likely still have racist and sexist tendencies, so playing a black female knight might be possible, but could also lead to stares and possible insults (in the game, of course). Though one can also subvert these stereotypes with interesting cultures in your setting (eg. a culture where only black females may be knights).

I think we are basically on the same wavelength here. I would only really expect the racist/sexist stuff for authenticates sake in games set on Earth. If it's a fantasy game set on Planet Gaia or some-such, then it's entirely up to the play group on whether or not they want to deal with those subjects.

thirtythr33 wrote:

nemedeus wrote:Just how hypocritical and unaware of themselves the Progressive Folks often seem to be.

I imagine many a progressive would similarly describe you as being hypocritical and unaware. I think that's the thing about politics, neither side can possibly fathom how anyone of a right mind could disagree with them on things they find to be self evident.

It's not that i disagree with them (for the most part), it's that i'm terrified of the way they go about it!

This is something I sympathies with you on. Especially white washing historical pieces. Isn't funny how Christian Bale can play the part of Moses and nobody bats an eye but having Idris Elba play James Bond is just not acceptable?

Like, why have white kids play Katara and Socca in Legend of Aang?
Luckily, I don't watch a lot of Hollywood (haven't seen Legend of Aang either), so i couldn't (and couldn't be bothered to) comment on that... talking more about Academia here.

Having said that, I don't mind when it's being done in a fantasy setting. The wizard is an Elf that can shoot fire out his arse, so is it really so unreasonable for someone to play a black female Knight?

Absolutely agree -- what grinds my gears is people calling me a racist for not wanting to play a black female knight (I guess i can't really blame anyone who would, though, as my main character is a white female Knight).

taelor wrote:As someone who's social circles includes both SJists and NRxers, can I say that I'm not a big fan of partisan sniping intruding into what is supposed to be an apolitical hobby. I get enough of that in my regular life. Both sides have said their pieces; can we please let this end here?

Sometimes such debates manage to stay amiable, and then they can yield useful alternative perspectives to people.

PsiPhire wrote:Relevant article: The Other Side Is Not Dumb.

If im being perfectly honest, gotta say i don't really mind people building Echo Chambers. I don't think i can take constantly engaging people putting forth what to me is pure insanity, for instance.

That said, i LOVE a good being-offended. It's probably the adrenalin rush i get when i seek out media misrepresenting science to make some pseudoscientific point, that makes me go there.
... i think i need professional help.

While this could well be a productive discussion, I fear it might not be the most appropriate to our forums. Discussing this or that game's (or programs) merits are interesting topics. Partisan politics rarely change anyone's mind though.

If one wants to discuss the merits of Kobel's GM performance, by all means. Debating the relative merits of his social politics is probably out of the scope of our platform, though. We have a great community here. I'd hate to see the same divisiveness that shows up everywhere else on the internet play out here.

Agamemnon wrote:While this could well be a productive discussion, I fear it might not be the most appropriate to our forums. Discussing this or that game's (or programs) merits are interesting topics. Partisan politics rarely change anyone's mind though.

If the impression i made is that i hold animosities to anyone present, i want to unequivocally dispel that notion; i'm very much happy to be able to partake in this forum.