Zornhau Forums

nemedeus wrote:Now the way i understand it, while these polearms have a lot of the advantages of spears, there's still quite a bit of a difference between a spear and a polearm (at least in the way people tend to use them... so in a way, i'm asking this knowing that there's no good way to deal with a spear for a longsword, period).

Well, generally speaking, going with a sword against any polearm in a one-on-one (without enviromental disadvantages for the polaerm-user) usually results with the swordsman getting the shaft.

-Ochs and Pflug seem to be almost completely pointless (heh) in this matchup

Relying on one stance throughout a fight is bad. No matter the opponent's skill or your own. Or weapons used. Have you tried starting with Vom Tag or Nebenhut (depending on the situation), and mix Ochs and Pflug in there? And don't forget Alber. Going with such a seemingly aggressive style could shake your opponent.

-trying to grab the the polearm is not an option, it's just too fast---maybe if you manage to get your entire arm around it? seems to be the safer way to grab, but how do you do that?

And you end up with a knife in the gut, knee in the groin, punch in the neck or armpit, and so on. On one occassion I've seen a poleax user grab his weapon just below the head and use it as stabbing weapon in a similar situation where the grabbing part failed, stil they got too close.

-halfswording works great (easier to control the polearm's shaft), but only once you closed the distance (so business as usual)

Indeed. Still you have to close the distance and the polearm-user is equally trained (if not more) in this kind of situation. Halberds and poleaxes are notorious for their excellent leverage in closer ranges. Halfswording won't give you an edge, it will only even the odds for you a bit.

the best solution seems to be, drop the zweihänder and get a halberd---which flies in the face of the doppelsöldner-vs-pikemen cliche, which i suspect that to be a myth anyway.

No myth at all. Don't forget, the doppelsöldner-vs-pikemen tactic was a thing of its time, and its application was for field combat, not duels. The idea was that the swordsmen hacked/broke the pike shafts, creating entry points in the pikemen formation. Not to mention that a pike is entirely different than a spear/staff/halberd/poleax/you name it.

Some thoughts.

• Footwork is paramount for combat. The best way to close distantance and remain safe is footwork. Investing time in it will definetaly pay off.
• Your sword (or whatever) is a tool. Your body is the weapon. I cannot stress that strongly enough.
• Grappling by itself means nothing. You know what to do when in a grapple?
• Play smart. Expect the unexpected while doing the unexpected.

An example to illustrate all four points: While in mid-range -- and vying for control in a halfswording-vs-shaft situation -- kick your opponent's ankles under him. Not with a kick. With your footwork.

So my input is this: Train. Then train some more. Then train again. And always try to think out of the box.

Benedict wrote:Well, generally speaking, going with a sword against any polearm in a one-on-one (without enviromental disadvantages for the polaerm-user) usually results with the swordsman getting the shaft.

well yeah, that's why i'm really talking about greatsword/montante/zweihänder here, should've made it more clear. when facing a polearm with a hand-and-half sword/longsword/bastard sword or whatever you want to call it, the by far best tactic is to turn tail (if you didn't bring a shield, that is).

-Ochs and Pflug seem to be almost completely pointless (heh) in this matchup

Relying on one stance throughout a fight is bad. No matter the opponent's skill or your own. Or weapons used. Have you tried starting with Vom Tag or Nebenhut (depending on the situation), and mix Ochs and Pflug in there? And don't forget Alber. Going with such a seemingly aggressive style could shake your opponent.

Believe me, i'm quite keen on Wechseln between the Guards, it's just that in my opinion, Ochs and Pflug in this matchup don't really do what they are supposed to do. There may be moments where i want to end in ochs or pflug, but if i'm just going through the guards ochs and pflug in this particular matchup don't really do much for you as the starting position. when we are training, i use vom tag, alber, and nebenhut/eisentor all the time, but i feel like pflug and ochs make me more passive rather than reactive.

-trying to grab the the polearm is not an option, it's just too fast---maybe if you manage to get your entire arm around it? seems to be the safer way to grab, but how do you do that?

And you end up with a knife in the gut, knee in the groin, punch in the neck or armpit, and so on. On one occassion I've seen a poleax user grab his weapon just below the head and use it as stabbing weapon in a similar situation where the grabbing part failed, stil they got too close.

"-experienced halberdists will just draw their dagger on you at that distance (i did join a halberd training once and this was a huge point the instructor made)"
or did you mean the halberd's head when you said "knife"?

-halfswording works great (easier to control the polearm's shaft), but only once you closed the distance (so business as usual)

Indeed. Still you have to close the distance and the polearm-user is equally trained (if not more) in this kind of situation. Halberds and poleaxes are notorious for their excellent leverage in closer ranges. Halfswording won't give you an edge, it will only even the odds for you a bit.

... gives me conniptions ...

the best solution seems to be, drop the zweihänder and get a halberd---which flies in the face of the doppelsöldner-vs-pikemen cliche, which i suspect that to be a myth anyway.

No myth at all. Don't forget, the doppelsöldner-vs-pikemen tactic was a thing of its time, and its application was for field combat, not duels. The idea was that the swordsmen hacked/broke the pike shafts, creating entry points in the pikemen formation. Not to mention that a pike is entirely different than a spear/staff/halberd/poleax/you name it.

good point, but as an aside compare this game. the Zweihänder is in the same reach category as a sword i believe? what i'm trying to say is, people often say a zweihänder/greatsword is really more of a polearm than a sword. it's just that so far i haven't found a way to use it well against actual polearms.

Footwork is paramount for combat. The best way to close distantance and remain safe is footwork. Investing time in it will definetaly pay off.

well that's nothing new is it?

Your sword (or whatever) is a tool. Your body is the weapon. I cannot stress that strongly enough.

not quite sure what you're trying to say with that. do you mean to train with all different kinds of weapons? i can get behind that, although as i said, it's longsword that i "get" most out of all the different weapon classes.

Grappling by itself means nothing. You know what to do when in a grapple?

ah, but that is not what i said. i meant grabbing, not grappling. the point of grabbing an opponents polearm the way i see it is to both bind his weapon but also bind the guy at that distance. if he drops the polearm for a dagger, i've got the longer knife at least. if he doesn't, he still can't make a swing (or rather, thrust) at me so that's also good. The tricky part is the one where you actually grab the pole, which i believe is not a safe bet to do with your hand, hence why i said, wrap your arm around it (to trap it under your armpit). as with halfswording, this is more or less only viable AFTER closing the distance. so i figure if i get down to it, the real question is how to close that distance.

Play smart. Expect the unexpected while doing the unexpected.

Send the Spanish Inquisition against the Spanish Inquisition, i see
... sorry xD
It's solid advice, though at the same time, there's only so many things that actually work, given a specific context :/

An example to illustrate all four points: While in mid-range -- and vying for control in a halfswording-vs-shaft situation -- kick your opponent's ankles under him. Not with a kick. With your footwork.

every time i've tried that so far, i was the one who hit the floor, lol

So my input is this: Train. Then train some more. Then train again. And always try to think out of the box.

Now that's simplifying things. i still need an idea of WHAT to train, that's what the question is about.


As i said, the real question is, how to close the distance. the rest is quite clear.

That longbow packs a punch though.

I wouldn't exactly call it "swordplay gems", but here's a bunch of idiots fencing with sharp swords and no body armor.


youtu.be/AkrSnSCgfmM

thirtythr33 wrote:here's a bunch of idiots fencing with sharp swords and no body armor.

And you're being nice by calling them idiots.

Stuff like these make me wanna summon Cthulhu.


As a side note, it's interesting how the sword+shield "vikings" in that stream bout end up in a grapple. Or the difference between a Lv1 Cut and a Lv2 Cut on the first bout.

Benedict wrote:

thirtythr33 wrote:here's a bunch of idiots fencing with sharp swords and no body armor.

And you're being nice by calling them idiots.

Stuff like these make me wanna summon Cthulhu.

As a side note, it's interesting how the sword+shield "vikings" in that stream bout end up in a grapple. Or the difference between a Lv1 Cut and a Lv2 Cut on the first bout.

Man, don't remind me of these guys...

youtu.be/afqhBODc_8U

I enjoyed this entirely too much. I really wish Lloyd did this kind of thing more often.

youtu.be/QoKexdD_GQM
Finland has very good statistics, that's probably because of Marras and his buddies