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Agamemnon wrote:I think messer fighting is perhaps the purest expression of german swordsmanship - literally every move seems angry and unnecessarily spiteful. "I have this relatively short cutting weapon. I know, I'm going to get right up on top of you and beat you with the pommel instead!"

Even though I admire your work on the upcoming hope of all TROS worshippers, I wholeheartedly disagree with you about linking "angry and unnecessarily spiteful" with "German" (and I must assume that this is pointed at "German" as a national group of people living roughly in today's borders of the Bundesrepublik and maybe the former parts of the Heilige Römische Reich in today's Bohemia and Poland for example, rather than "German" as a vague collection of any "Germania" based people from the time of the migration period encompassing most people living in today's western nations including Germany, most of Scandinavia, France, Great Britain, America and so forth; which I would disagree with either).

I've travelled a lot around the world, and I've never heard anyone who would have said that Germans would be particularly "angry and unnecessarily spiteful". Instead, I got told that we would be rude by Vietnamese, too honest by Romanians, too straightforward by Indians, too complicated by Americans, too jovial by Russians and Fins, much too uptight by Albanians, arrogant by Poles and just right by Swedes.

If the messer fighting looks "angry and unnecessarily spiteful" it most certainly wouldn't be because it's "German". Especially if you truly refer "German" to a national identity.

It would be because messers were weapons of the lower classes. And the lower classes do not care about honour or fancy looking fencing. They care about winning. And that is not a trait that is limited to the Germans, but which can be seen at scapegoats in Britain, America, India, Araby and elsewhere in the world. The weapon just originated in Germany because of the law, prohibiting the lower classes to wear double-edged weapons. I'm sure that similar styles have been used in every lower class of any nation just with other, more common weapons.

This just hurt my most un-angry and completely un-spiteful feelings as a true German (even though both my grandparents on my mother's side came from Poland, so I'm not exactly a 100% German).

Considered too jovial by Finns? [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] Frankly I don't know any Germans personally but I would say you are just fine [WHITE SMILING FACE].

Of course I can't guess what Agamemnon meant by what he wrote and I am certain he will comment it himself but I understood that it is no nonsense and efficient way to fight.

That's my take on a caricature of a German. Efficient and without nonsense. I don't know if I want to see your tske of a caricature Finn [FACE WITH COLD SWEAT]

EinBein wrote:I wholeheartedly disagree with you about linking "angry and unnecessarily spiteful" with "German"

Agamemnon being partly German himself, I can vouch it was a friendly jest.

In Poland a stereotypical German would be a very organized, cold machine...

Agamemnon, Einbein - in Poland we say "ta zniewaga krwi wymaga!", which stands for "this insult calls for blood!" - I think you should resolve your matter in a duel! Grab your dices, roll initiative!

There's an Irish joke that has floated around my family as long as I can remember, and it goes something like "I'm mighty tired of hearing these eejits go on about how drunken and violent Irish people are. If they said it to my face, I'd be obliged to put down my pint and beat their arse."

That said, none of this has to do with the national characteristics or temperament of a people. Well, maybe the Irish, but often enough we think it's funny.

EinBein wrote:Even though I admire your work on the upcoming hope of all TROS worshippers, I wholeheartedly disagree with you about linking "angry and unnecessarily spiteful" with "German" (and I must assume that this is pointed at "German" as a national group of people living roughly in today's borders of the Bundesrepublik and maybe the former parts of the Heilige Römische Reich in today's Bohemia and Poland for example, rather than "German" as a vague collection of any "Germania" based people from the time of the migration period encompassing most people living in today's western nations including Germany, most of Scandinavia, France, Great Britain, America and so forth; which I would disagree with either).

Your primary assumption is flawed. I'm said German swordsmanship. I was referring to their style of swordsmanship, which if you get into HEMA stuff at all you'll notice a distinct trend. Where Italian schools will tend towards very much towards exploiting the weapon's reach and harassing their opponents at length, the German style of fighting tends to be "get as close to your opponent and bear down upon them" regardless of what weapon system we're looking at. We see this beautifully expressed in the way messers fight, but it's also in their polearms and longsword systems involved (and thus, it isn't a class issue either- remember, though messers started as a low-class weapon, they quickly became favored by german fencing schools and found some perchase among all levels of society).

German swordsmanship is characteristically brutal in it's efficienty, and I lovingly referred to it as being "angry and spiteful" because some of the moves appear outwardly to be mean just for the sake of being mean - which is great. I don't see this as a negative. I find it an interesting and flavorful quirk of history. The statement was actually one of praise - I'm the one who pushed for their inclusion in the first place.

higgins wrote:

EinBein wrote:I wholeheartedly disagree with you about linking "angry and unnecessarily spiteful" with "German"

Agamemnon being partly German himself, I can vouch it was a friendly jest.

Ah. Yeah. There's that too. Did I mention I'm a quarter German?

Agamemnon wrote:German swordsmanship is characteristically brutal in it's efficienty, and I lovingly referred to it as being "angry and spiteful" because some of the moves appear outwardly to be mean just for the sake of being mean - which is great. I don't see this as a negative. I find it an interesting and flavorful quirk of history. The statement was actually one of praise - I'm the one who pushed for their inclusion in the first place.

Then I apology for making such a mess. No need to fight unto death in a duel of honour I have no idea of other european styles. My brother has fought with longswords for some time (and has met Jake Norwood in Germany as well), but I have nothing to do with actual fighting...

You know, my sensitiveness may have been caused by contemporary media using a certain part of the German history in judgements about how German society is today, which is just... not true. We have many flaws, but spitefulness isn't one of those.

Korbel wrote:In Poland a stereotypical German would be a very organized, cold machine...

Our Polish representative told me once, if he would ever resign, it would be because of German engineers dismissing his opinion because he's "just a Pole". I can proudly say that I wouldn't do such a thing ever, but I know many of my fellow countrymen who would, so I can perfectly understand him...

Marras wrote:I don't know if I want to see your tske of a caricature Finn [FACE WITH COLD SWEAT]

From my personal experience with some Finnish customers in Raahe, the caricature would certainly not contain a speech balloon or just one with "..." in it.

EinBein wrote:From my personal experience with some Finnish customers in Raahe, the caricature would certainly not contain a speech balloon or just one with "..." in it.

I should have used the word stereotype (I was pretty tired when I wrote that message last night, using TapaTalk). But yes, that is not too far off

EinBein wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:German swordsmanship is characteristically brutal in it's efficienty, and I lovingly referred to it as being "angry and spiteful" because some of the moves appear outwardly to be mean just for the sake of being mean - which is great. I don't see this as a negative. I find it an interesting and flavorful quirk of history. The statement was actually one of praise - I'm the one who pushed for their inclusion in the first place.

Then I apology for making such a mess. No need to fight unto death in a duel of honour I have no idea of other european styles. My brother has fought with longswords for some time (and has met Jake Norwood in Germany as well), but I have nothing to do with actual fighting...

You know, my sensitiveness may have been caused by contemporary media using a certain part of the German history in judgements about how German society is today, which is just... not true. We have many flaws, but spitefulness isn't one of those.

Korbel wrote:In Poland a stereotypical German would be a very organized, cold machine...

Our Polish representative told me once, if he would ever resign, it would be because of German engineers dismissing his opinion because he's "just a Pole". I can proudly say that I wouldn't do such a thing ever, but I know many of my fellow countrymen who would, so I can perfectly understand him...

Marras wrote:I don't know if I want to see your tske of a caricature Finn [FACE WITH COLD SWEAT]

From my personal experience with some Finnish customers in Raahe, the caricature would certainly not contain a speech balloon or just one with "..." in it.

At the risk of bringing this threat back on topic...

Here's a video put together by my local fencing club.

youtu.be/jrXfcjK67aM

And here's a mini doco about how lightsaber duels were based on Kendo.
Daily Motion Link

Since Star Wars keeps coming up:


youtu.be/bEcVSxNVxsY

Wow. That's a masterpiece...

youtu.be/IV3yvOkooYA

Armored MMA

Agamemnon wrote:Armored MMA

That's essentially what we do here. Except these two guys in the above video are really, really good. The category I mostly participate in doesn't allow grappling, but I don't take part in the harder ones due to my stamina limitations as it's exhausting as hell.

Also, these guys have way lighter armor than we do. I'm 99% positive that most of their kit is made out of titanium, as is common in Russia if you can afford it.

Using titanium armor is forbidden in IMCF World Championships as it's not authentic, and they do check your kit with a magnet. In Battle of the Nations though, titanium is legal, you can wear sneakers under your sabatons and even enter the lists with a GoPro mounted to your helmet... But plastic water bottles? Nope. Can't use those. Not authentic.

Outstanding axemanship from BOTN team Ukraine:

youtu.be/6tbwJl5gn58

Doesn't that hurt a whole lot?