Zornhau Forums

dra wrote:1. I understand it's beta but where is damage table for ranged weapons? Am I supposed to make it up myself?

We have pistols in the dueling kit, but other than that we have not released the weapons yet. Except the teaser for bow in... 2014? Hoooooly cow, we need to get this game done. http://www.grandheresy.com/blog/2014/4/ ... ex-of-arms

dra wrote:2. Is there a reason for a warrior to put points in Strength? It does not affect damage in any way. Also, damage soak is affected by Stamina. Was it really important to have 2 attributes instead of 1?

Strength adds directly to melee damage.

higgins wrote: We have pistols in the dueling kit, but other than that we have not released the weapons yet. Except the teaser for bow in... 2014? Hoooooly cow, we need to get this game done. http://www.grandheresy.com/blog/2014/4/ ... ex-of-arms

Is there a chance than to get some pre alpha table or something that is not ready 100% yet but playable and used in test games? My group recently wanted to go back to TROS, from there it was obvious choice to try BLADE. I was searching some rules clarification on internet and than found some info regarding bastards. Some ideas here seems to be interesting (as few things in blade, we will probably mix some of two things) and we decided to try Bastards first. We can live without magic for a while but we deffinetly will have to make some ranged weapons tables.

Strength adds directly to melee damage.

Oh yeah, while waiting for acceptance of previous post I found it already in duelling kit. I gotta say it is kinda obscured in a way of presentation of rules. You do mention stamina damage soak in main rules section yet completly forgot about strength in there. I read it few times and was so shocked I never really get info description of DR in duelling kit. So IMHO you should either write ST + x in every damage section in every weapon or just mention about basic strength bonus in section regarding damage calculation.

I admit I might have missed it because of sense of shock after seeing that STAMINA soaks so much damage. I mean, it's kinda "armored dwarf fallacy" from 90ties's wfrp. If one person picks stamina as priority atribute and has it @ 6 and attaking character has ST of 2 (quite reasonable for non-meele ppl) it seems to me that bare skin has more armor value than chainmail (descriptions and special attributes of armours aside). It is even more shocking that this fallacy was well known and most homebrew rules resorted to either toughness canceling out only ST damage (even if it was higher) or doing it BLADE's way of dividing attributes in halves. Of course one might argument that it is up to players to not overuse such cheesy tactics, yet there should be no reason to set up game for some OP builds.

Unless I did not read it carefully enough again.

On the other note I would like to request clarification on chapter 13. The entire time up to here meele is portraited as too chaotic and too fluent to measure in silly things as seconds or minutes. Therefore we do not have fixed timed rounds in combat, we resort to "phrases" or "limelights". How am I supposed to all of sudden count blood loss every minute? Or every 30 seconds as two BL3 wounds were recieved?

The average fight lasts significantly less than a minute, so it's probably worth not tracking blood loss until the fight is over.

hector wrote:The average fight lasts significantly less than a minute, so it's probably worth not tracking blood loss until the fight is over.

Really?

That would be way different than TROS than. Since back in the days, two simillar CP, heavy armoured opponents could have smite at each another for ages. Granted, there is slightly higher TN for shields but than again, you don't have to have DTN5 since you can easily achieve that by constantly disengaging. It's TN 5, it breaks up the fight so opponents "circle around waiting for opening". I guess every time you do that, you buy 10-15 seconds at least.

So I am this bloke who got lucky BL2 on my opponent and is playing defensive game with my shield favoring less armoured locations. Every time I can, I use dissengage which puts me at advantage (and wound might put opponent at disadv). I just make sure I allocate enough dice to avoid feints. If I wish to be nasty I could say I don't care being hit anyway since I have Stamina @6!

Two people in full plate can have at each other for ages, but then they're not going to be receiving any blood loss at all unless they're using weapons designed specifically for dealing with plate (what with the conversion to blunt and the maximum wound level). Also, they are certainly not the average combatants. An average combatant (certainly for this game) is going to be in a back alley somewhere, wearing leather or gambeson, wherein the first solid hit will probably end the fight.

Not to mention, BL 2 comes from (at minimum) a level 3 wound - this is the point where a combatant who actually cares about surviving the fight should probably be considering surrender.

As for not caring about getting hit, that's a dangerous gambit even at stamina 6. An average warrior will probably have strength 3. An arming sword adds 1, for 4 damage. They don't need all that many successes to do you serious harm. In this game, the combat pools are similar to those of TROS, but the stats are halved, making measure of success a far more important factor in determining wound level than difference in strength/stamina. The main benefit from rigid metal armour isn't the 3-4 AV; it's the fact that the hit cannot deal any more than a Level 3 Blunt wound (unless you're using weapons designed specifically for fighting plate), meaning no blood loss, only a minor increase in TN, and of course impact. Stamina 6 does not give you this benefit. Someone hits you in the face with a falchion, then assuming strength 2 vs stamina 6 and no armour (i.e. the classic naked dwarf), only 3 successes are needed for a wound, and only six are needed for a level 4 wound. That's very achievable, and often enough to end a fight on the spot.

dra wrote:Is there a chance than to get some pre alpha table or something that is not ready 100% yet but playable and used in test games?

Here is the info I have managed to backward engineer from various spoilers and the examples given in the beta:

Sling
4p (short/medium, Instant)
1 shot per round max

Crossbows
5p (medium/long, reload 1)
Mobile (can run around with loaded and fire from prone etc)

Bows
5p (medium/long, Instant)

Arqeubus
7p (medium/long, Reload 2)

Instant means you can fire multiple times per round, CP allowing.
Reload means you have to use reload action that many times between shots
range1/range2 means range1 is your optimal range (you can choose the target wheel) and range2 is your maximum range

This is just rough stuff. Real rules will differentiate between different ammo types and more rules about ambushing distances and stuff. There is probably going to be some armor piercing property for guns too.

dra wrote:I admit I might have missed it because of sense of shock after seeing that STAMINA soaks so much damage. I mean, it's kinda "armored dwarf fallacy" from 90ties's wfrp. If one person picks stamina as priority atribute and has it @ 6 and attaking character has ST of 2 (quite reasonable for non-meele ppl) it seems to me that bare skin has more armor value than chainmail (descriptions and special attributes of armours aside). It is even more shocking that this fallacy was well known and most homebrew rules resorted to either toughness canceling out only ST damage (even if it was higher) or doing it BLADE's way of dividing attributes in halves.

First of all, note that in BotIT and TROS your attributes range from 1-10 and in BoB your attribute ranges from 1-5. BoB has effectively incorporated the "divide attribute by half" rule for the purposes of using STAM in Armor, only without having to do math.
Second, BoB armor is slightly higher rating than that in BotIT. BoB has armor ranging from gambeson (2) to plate (6) and BotIT has gambeson (1) to plate (6).
Third, and probably most importantly, the special attributes of armor is one of their most important functions.

Metal converting Piercing and Cutting to Blunt damage type downgrades the type of damage you take and Rigid caps the wound at Level 3. Let's examine an example of your naked dwarf and an armored weakling.

The naked dwarf has STAM6 and the armored weakling has STAM1 and munitions plate with AV4. From a first glace, it would appear the dwarf's AV6 is better than the weaklings AV5, right?
But look what happens when you see how an actual attack is resolved. Say someone lands a MOS4 swing at the ribs with a Glaive (2c) and STR3. The Glaive has Drawcut.

Against the dwarf, this is a level 5 Cutting Wound:
Weapon is lodged in the chest. Death is imminent. KO3, Impact 10, BTN 10

Against the weakling, this is a level 3 Blunt Wound:
Knocks out the wind. Bad bruising. Taking deep breaths is going to be painful for a while. Impact 6, BTN7

Turns out, that armor is massively more valuable than having high Stamina. Armor properties look so important in fact, that I think that the weapon properties Crushing and Plate Piercing are way more important than a few DR and maybe even worth giving up reach for.

dra wrote:On the other note I would like to request clarification on chapter 13. The entire time up to here meele is portraited as too chaotic and too fluent to measure in silly things as seconds or minutes. Therefore we do not have fixed timed rounds in combat, we resort to "phrases" or "limelights". How am I supposed to all of sudden count blood loss every minute? Or every 30 seconds as two BL3 wounds were recieved?

The highest BL rate of 3 is 3 per min (or 1/20 sec). That would translate to 1 every 2 or 3 Rounds. To go into shock would take ~12 Rounds. That's way higher than how long most BoB skirmishes take. Ranged weapons have huge DR and it is very very easy to get high MOS (since your opponent doesn't get an opposed roll), it can be a lot like shooting fish in a barrel.

dra wrote:That would be way different than TROS than. Since back in the days, two simillar CP, heavy armoured opponents could have smite at each another for ages. Granted, there is slightly higher TN for shields but than again, you don't have to have DTN5 since you can easily achieve that by constantly disengaging. It's TN 5, it breaks up the fight so opponents "circle around waiting for opening". I guess every time you do that, you buy 10-15 seconds at least.

So I am this bloke who got lucky BL2 on my opponent and is playing defensive game with my shield favoring less armoured locations. Every time I can, I use dissengage which puts me at advantage (and wound might put opponent at disadv). I just make sure I allocate enough dice to avoid feints. If I wish to be nasty I could say I don't care being hit anyway since I have Stamina @6!

Yeah, if you both have STAM5 and AV6 and stand next to eachother trading blows like idiots you will do absolutely nothing and combat will take decades. The thing is though, the grapple system in BoB utterly brutal. Armored fights usually trade 1 or 2 blows to try to get a Trip or Grab before devolving into armored wrestling matches.

Consider that trying to hurt an opponent with STAM5 and AV6 means even if you have STR5 you still need to get a MOS8 just to move him to BTN7.
On the other hand... if you try to throw your opponent to the ground you only need MOS1 to give them Disadvantage (it's like BTN7 but better because it will stack with later wounds).
Also, the grappling maneuvers Gouge, Hold, Snap and Strangle all IGNORE ARMOR. Gouge, Hold and Strange ALSO ignore STAM as well. And only need MOS1 to get them started.

If you can use it, Gouge is utterly devastating. Since you can Maintain grapples for 0AC and your opponent cant Preempt from a grapple to restrain you, there is nothing stopping you from sinking 100% of your dicepool into it once you get your first success. From there it is practically impossible to break out of because of the huge Impact it deals that ignores all your STAM and AV.
Granted, if your opponent is fully encased in gothic plate you can't use Gouge or Strangle, but you can always use Hold. A MOS2 hold will halve your opponents pool, and combined with the Maintaining rules and no ability to preempt to restrain it is VERY difficult to escape. Once they are helpless at CP0, you can auto-kill your opponent by wrenching open his visor and jamming a dagger in his face.

All in all, if both characters are looking to grapple it's practically guaranteed that someone will have to surrender in 3 or 4 rounds.

I've got questions about the intent of the developers on system transparency. Should players automatically know an enemy's stats? Should players know how much damage a blow does to them when they're hit but not wounded? Should players know the exact type of weapon an opponent is using? How about its damage rating or its keywords? For instance, should a player know whether an enemy's weapon has mail-piercing? If not, when should they be informed? Should players know exactly which zones on an enemy are armored?

higgins wrote:

thirtythr33 wrote:In my opinion the GM doesn't have to tell you what the enemy CP is (or any NPC stats or attributes for that matter). Not knowing how skilled your opponent is at the outset is a good reason not to throw red at the start of every fight.

If an enemy were particularly nasty and skilled and wanted to toy with you, he might not even use his entire CP in phrase 1 in order to trap you later.

This!

Personally, I don't tell players the statistics of the NPCs but I will fully describe what their weapons and armor look like. For example, I will tell them what locations are covered by plate armor and that they are carrying a pike, but not that the armor is AV6 or that the pike have Maille Piercing. I do however let them know the exact info once it has become used (ie, when you hit them you find out what the AV of their armor is).

myanbar wrote:I've got questions about the intent of the developers on system transparency. Should players automatically know an enemy's stats? Should players know how much damage a blow does to them when they're hit but not wounded? Should players know the exact type of weapon an opponent is using? How about its damage rating or its keywords? For instance, should a player know whether an enemy's weapon has mail-piercing? If not, when should they be informed? Should players know exactly which zones on an enemy are armored?

I don't tell them anything about stats. Just things they can see in-character. If someone has a high strength/stamina they are probably going to be a big, brawny dude. If someone is generally small and thin, they are probably low strength/stamina. At best, the only hint the players will have about how high/low their opponent's CP is will be some description of posture ("he holds his rapier like he was born with it.") or whatever they can surmise from what they know about the person by reputation ("The captain's guard are famous for their swordsmanship.") I will at no point ever go "You can tell this guy has a 12cp." If they want to know for certain, they can try to keep track of what I roll for that character in a fight.

I will absolutely describe any armor they can see, but I'm not going to reference what the game stats are for armor/weapons till they come up. This isn't because it's supposed to be hidden knowledge or anything -- it's fairly intuitive to know that the two-handed sword is going to do some nasty cutting damage -- it's just not part of the scene I'm trying to paint. If the players have the information memorized, good for them.

Once things are in play though, I'm not going to try to secretly do the math and hide it from them. You've gotten hit for 9 piercing damage. What's your AV? Okay, you hit him for 7 piercing damage -- that's 3+2 for his gambeson, so he takes a level 2 wound to the abdomen, etc etc.

hector wrote:Two people in full plate can have at each other for ages, but then they're not going to be receiving any blood loss at all unless they're using weapons designed specifically for dealing with plate (what with the conversion to blunt and the maximum wound level).

Unless lucky thrust into armpit covered only by gambeson?

Also, they are certainly not the average combatants. An average combatant (certainly for this game) is going to be in a back alley somewhere, wearing leather or gambeson, wherein the first solid hit will probably end the fight.

Depends really.
There is no setting obviously but mechanics themselves lets you create a lord or cash out on your trappings which means it allows players to do that from start. If it does, than they will at least try. In my games we run low fantasy setting in the world where iron is generally speaking rarer than in ours which inflates prices of armours. But than again, you gotta be just to the players. If one of mid-level antagonists is some richly lord, he would have some serious gear on him. If he's defeated, players will in most case scenarios be able to loot him. You can get away with plate being custom made and stuff but mail + some breast plate are kinda universal. So even if armour is expensive, if as a GM you want to provide some challange human opposition, they will get their hands on it eventually.

Not to mention, BL 2 comes from (at minimum) a level 3 wound - this is the point where a combatant who actually cares about surviving the fight should probably be considering surrender.

In normal circumstances, yeah

As for not caring about getting hit, that's a dangerous gambit even at stamina 6. An average warrior will probably have strength 3. An arming sword adds 1, for 4 damage. They don't need all that many successes to do you serious harm. In this game, the combat pools are similar to those of TROS, but the stats are halved, making measure of success a far more important factor in determining wound level than difference in strength/stamina. The main benefit from rigid metal armour isn't the 3-4 AV; it's the fact that the hit cannot deal any more than a Level 3 Blunt wound (unless you're using weapons designed specifically for fighting plate), meaning no blood loss, only a minor increase in TN, and of course impact. Stamina 6 does not give you this benefit. Someone hits you in the face with a falchion, then assuming strength 2 vs stamina 6 and no armour (i.e. the classic naked dwarf), only 3 successes are needed for a wound, and only six are needed for a level 4 wound. That's very achievable, and often enough to end a fight on the spot.

I guess you take "naked" a bit too litterally. If every character with 6 stamina run naked, it would not be a problem. Problem arises when stamina 6 pc or npc runs in proofed plate. That's a moment when it stops being silly and starts being annoying. It requires some testing but having played few games (tros included) and creating few customs for myself I'd be inclined to believe in true tanks are availible in Bastards.

thirtythr33 wrote: Here is the info I have managed to backward engineer from various spoilers and the examples given in the beta:
(...)
This is just rough stuff. Real rules will differentiate between different ammo types and more rules about ambushing distances and stuff. There is probably going to be some armor piercing property for guns too.

That's cool, will suffice for some startup games. Thanks.
Bows have same DR as crossbows? That's ... unorthodox

dra wrote: First of all, note that in BotIT and TROS your attributes range from 1-10 and in BoB your attribute ranges from 1-5. BoB has effectively incorporated the "divide attribute by half" rule for the purposes of using STAM in Armor, only without having to do math.
Second, BoB armor is slightly higher rating than that in BotIT. BoB has armor ranging from gambeson (2) to plate (6) and BotIT has gambeson (1) to plate (6).

Granted. Does not change core of the problem though.

Third, and probably most importantly, the special attributes of armor is one of their most important functions.

I said armor properties aside

Metal converting Piercing and Cutting to Blunt damage type downgrades the type of damage you take and Rigid caps the wound at Level 3. Let's examine an example of your naked dwarf and an armored weakling.

(...)

Turns out, that armor is massively more valuable than having high Stamina. Armor properties look so important in fact, that I think that the weapon properties Crushing and Plate Piercing are way more important than a few DR and maybe even worth giving up reach for.

This is good example and I guess math is right. It also touches surfaces of the subject. It is not as bad as in WFRP, it is better than in tros, yet problem still exist. Do not pick a naked dwarf for example. Pick a dwarf with same armour as his opponent. Therefore he gets both advantages. He converts damages to blunt, has rigid property yet still his "natural AV" is extreme.
I also mentioned chainmail not proofed plate. Please do not cherry pick data
So we have a not - naked dwarf with stamina 6 and chainmail 3. He can always get better gear but stamina stays with him. So an avarage human being swings at him with ST 2...He needs some serious luck in dice throw to even catch dwarf's attention.

The highest BL rate of 3 is 3 per min (or 1/20 sec). That would translate to 1 every 2 or 3 Rounds. To go into shock would take ~12 Rounds.

I'd suggest than it would be better to stick to abstract rounds in counting. BL 3 causes another loss every this and this amount of rounds. In blade it's test every limelight. Very unacurate but sufficent.

That's way higher than how long most BoB skirmishes take. Ranged weapons have huge DR and it is very very easy to get high MOS (since your opponent doesn't get an opposed roll), it can be a lot like shooting fish in a barrel.

Do you guys never do duels?
I feel TROS and Bastards excell at them.

Yeah, if you both have STAM5 and AV6 and stand next to eachother trading blows like idiots you will do absolutely nothing and combat will take decades. The thing is though, the grapple system in BoB utterly brutal. Armored fights usually trade 1 or 2 blows to try to get a Trip or Grab before devolving into armored wrestling matches.

I gotta admit, I never read grappling. First of all I want to learn how to walk, memorize manouvers and than use that extra special flavour bits in system.

Also, the grappling maneuvers Gouge, Hold, Snap and Strangle all IGNORE ARMOR. Gouge, Hold and Strange ALSO ignore STAM as well. And only need MOS1 to get them started.

Hold seems great to bleed enemy to death

All in all, if both characters are looking to grapple it's practically guaranteed that someone will have to surrender in 3 or 4 rounds.

And if I am not looking to grapple and just try to disengage to burn time?

dra wrote:Bows have same DR as crossbows? That's ... unorthodox

That's just the bow I found in one of the examples. I imagine if you were to break it down it might be something more like:
short self bow 3p short/medium
Composite bow 4p short/medium
English longbow 5p short/long

dra wrote:Pick a dwarf with same armour as his opponent. Therefore he gets both advantages. He converts damages to blunt, has rigid property yet still his "natural AV" is extreme.
I also mentioned chainmail not proofed plate. Please do not cherry pick data
So we have a not - naked dwarf with stamina 6 and chainmail 3. He can always get better gear but stamina stays with him. So an avarage human being swings at him with ST 2...He needs some serious luck in dice throw to even catch dwarf's attention.

Even using the most extremely optimized example of STAM6 and AV6, a character with STR1 and similar CP can still win with good tactics. You just have to know what tactics don't rely on using STR to overcome AV.
Assuming the reasonable stats of CUN4 AGI4 and Proficiency of 9 (only tier 4) gives a ranged combat pool of 17. With a standard Arqubus of DR7, you can Aim and wait until he gets to minimum range to fire with a Ob0. 17 dice will net you about MOS9 + 7DR = 16 damage, or a Level 4 wound to a location of your choice.

Even assuming melee only with both combatants having CP of ~17, the guy in full proofed plate and maille armpits and hamstrings has to eat up a whopping CP penalty of 5 dice. Ie, if he is fighting against a naked guy with a spear the tank is only at 12CP versus 21 for the spearman. If the naked guy does the smart thing and forces positioning rolls every round it tips even further in the spearman's favor. The tank will very quickly be knocked prone and disarmed, at which point the nudest is safe to dive in for the wrestle and kill him by one of the methods I already mentioned (17CP with advantage, versus 12CP with disadvantage).

Moreover, ganging up is always a possibility. Someone with 12CP splitting it between a positioning roll and fighting 2 opponents is going to get tied up by one combatant and smashed to death by the other very quickly.

And if all that is unacceptable to you, you can beat him down with brute force. Even with only STR3, you can equip a Goedendag (3b, crushing), use power swing for 2DR and Wrap to target AV3 hamstring. Then, against STAM6 with full proofed plate and maille in the gaps, a MOS4 attack will deal a level 3 wound and most likely knockdown, which will put you in good position to with the fight with a MOS6 swing to kill.

dra wrote:Do you guys never do duels?
I feel TROS and Bastards excell at them.

We have done a few. Check out the play by post section of these forums.

dra wrote:And if I am not looking to grapple and just try to disengage to burn time?

You can't chain disengages. You can't use disengage on the same phrase you roll for initiative. That means your opponent will always get the chance to Grab or Throw you in the first phrase; and once you are grabbed or prone you can no longer use disengage until you first win a test with Break or a positioning roll. That said, disengaging as often as you can to burn time is a good tactic if you have friends around which can help.

dra wrote:Unless lucky thrust into armpit covered only by gambeson?

The armpit does BL1 at a Level 4 wound - at this point, the fight is all but over anyway (TN9 is like losing approximately 80% of your die pool) and the blood loss, while concerning, is only life threatening if ignored for a significant length of time.

Depends really.
There is no setting obviously but mechanics themselves lets you create a lord or cash out on your trappings which means it allows players to do that from start. If it does, than they will at least try. In my games we run low fantasy setting in the world where iron is generally speaking rarer than in ours which inflates prices of armours. But than again, you gotta be just to the players. If one of mid-level antagonists is some richly lord, he would have some serious gear on him. If he's defeated, players will in most case scenarios be able to loot him. You can get away with plate being custom made and stuff but mail + some breast plate are kinda universal. So even if armour is expensive, if as a GM you want to provide some challange human opposition, they will get their hands on it eventually.

Fair point. Having said that, metal armour often draws unwanted attention. The fact that you are wearing it screams that you are expecting trouble, and in an urban environment (the assumed setting for the game, even though most of the details remain vague), why would you be expecting trouble if you are not looking to start it?

I guess you take "naked" a bit too litterally. If every character with 6 stamina run naked, it would not be a problem. Problem arises when stamina 6 pc or npc runs in proofed plate. That's a moment when it stops being silly and starts being annoying. It requires some testing but having played few games (tros included) and creating few customs for myself I'd be inclined to believe in true tanks are availible in Bastards.

Fair point. However, as thirtythr33 has mentioned, there are tactics for getting around that. For one thing, you cannot disengage if you attacked in the previous exchange or if you just threw red/white dice. This gives an attacker ample opportunity to grapple - either as a defence against an incoming strike, or as an attack. Grappling is an extremely effective means of taking down a heavily armoured opponent, since as mentioned, the more brutal attacks ignore not only armour, but in the case of Gouge and Strangle they ignore Stamina too (at least in terms of whether or not they will kill you - you can keep fighting with a crushed windpipe if your wp/steel roll is good enough, but at this point you're simply fighting to take the other bastard with you).

thirtythr33 wrote:

dra wrote:Bows have same DR as crossbows? That's ... unorthodox

That's just the bow I found in one of the examples. I imagine if you were to break it down it might be something more like:
short self bow 3p short/medium
Composite bow 4p short/medium
English longbow 5p short/long

Thanks a lot.

Even using the most extremely optimized example of STAM6 and AV6, a character with STR1 and similar CP can still win with good tactics. You just have to know what tactics don't rely on using STR to overcome AV.
Assuming the reasonable stats of CUN4 AGI4 and Proficiency of 9 (only tier 4) gives a ranged combat pool of 17. With a standard Arqubus of DR7, you can Aim and wait until he gets to minimum range to fire with a Ob0. 17 dice will net you about MOS9 + 7DR = 16 damage, or a Level 4 wound to a location of your choice.

Even assuming melee only with both combatants having CP of ~17, the guy in full proofed plate and maille armpits and hamstrings has to eat up a whopping CP penalty of 5 dice. Ie, if he is fighting against a naked guy with a spear the tank is only at 12CP versus 21 for the spearman. If the naked guy does the smart thing and forces positioning rolls every round it tips even further in the spearman's favor. The tank will very quickly be knocked prone and disarmed, at which point the nudest is safe to dive in for the wrestle and kill him by one of the methods I already mentioned (17CP with advantage, versus 12CP with disadvantage).

Moreover, ganging up is always a possibility. Someone with 12CP splitting it between a positioning roll and fighting 2 opponents is going to get tied up by one combatant and smashed to death by the other very quickly.

And if all that is unacceptable to you, you can beat him down with brute force. Even with only STR3, you can equip a Goedendag (3b, crushing), use power swing for 2DR and Wrap to target AV3 hamstring. Then, against STAM6 with full proofed plate and maille in the gaps, a MOS4 attack will deal a level 3 wound and most likely knockdown, which will put you in good position to with the fight with a MOS6 swing to kill.

Sounds coool than. Can't wait to test.
I think we can't understand each another at the most basic level here. Maybe my level of english.

dra wrote:Do you guys never do duels?
I feel TROS and Bastards excell at them.

We have done a few. Check out the play by post section of these forums.

It's just one of the arguments of both discussion participants regarding blood loss was "in skirmish...". Rules should be universal enough I guess. I think skirmishes might be really exciting by looking at them but than I guess I stick to duels for plot arcs.

You can't chain disengages. You can't use disengage on the same phrase you roll for initiative. That means your opponent will always get the chance to Grab or Throw you in the first phrase; and once you are grabbed or prone you can no longer use disengage until you first win a test with Break or a positioning roll. That said, disengaging as often as you can to burn time is a good tactic if you have friends around which can help.

Is grappling OP than?

hector wrote:
The armpit does BL1 at a Level 4 wound - at this point, the fight is all but over anyway (TN9 is like losing approximately 80% of your die pool) and the blood loss, while concerning, is only life threatening if ignored for a significant length of time.

You got me than
No need for bloodloss

Fair point. Having said that, metal armour often draws unwanted attention. The fact that you are wearing it screams that you are expecting trouble, and in an urban environment (the assumed setting for the game, even though most of the details remain vague), why would you be expecting trouble if you are not looking to start it?

You would not. You put your stuff for war. Having said that, if you want to be just and give players proper plate, it would be mighty annoying for them if they can't use that in combat because GM keeps making those "suprise moments"

Fair point. However, as thirtythr33 has mentioned, there are tactics for getting around that. For one thing, you cannot disengage if you attacked in the previous exchange or if you just threw red/white dice. This gives an attacker ample opportunity to grapple - either as a defence against an incoming strike, or as an attack. Grappling is an extremely effective means of taking down a heavily armoured opponent, since as mentioned, the more brutal attacks ignore not only armour, but in the case of Gouge and Strangle they ignore Stamina too (at least in terms of whether or not they will kill you - you can keep fighting with a crushed windpipe if your wp/steel roll is good enough, but at this point you're simply fighting to take the other bastard with you).

So yeah, let's pretend there is some vauge silly point in rules.
Ok, there are tactics to work around that and if you are experienced players and know your manouvers and grappling and can choose equipment every time fight arises, you can live with that.
My question is : why bother if it can be corrected at basic level.

My point is why create a fallacy and work around it using advanced mechanics if you can avoid it at all. From this point I keep repeating : from my perspective, Soak advantage of 4 or 5 is way to high for contest-based combat pool game.




Speaking of range (spear example)...
Do you find this fixed range advantage of +2CP as good enough for all kind of weapons? Is is better than TROS +1 per range band and additional disadvantage if fighting something too cumberstone at close range? I see its way simpler but does it work better?